Date sent: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 14:08:24 -0600
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #1
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Thursday, 15 December 1994 Volume 01 : Number 001
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 17:24:21 600
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architecture
Originally From: musrst@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Robert Thompson)
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Date: Tue, 13 Dec 94 17:41:49 -0500
Message-Id: <9412132241.AA25763@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
To: silence@bga.com
Subject: Re: Dancing about Architecture
Hi there - help I need to know something about this quotation:
"...writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
.who originally said this, and where...
thanks mucho
******************************************************************************
*
Dr. Robert Scott Thompson
musrst@gsusgi2.gsu.edu
Georgia State University
Office: 404-651-3676
School of Music, 1 Univ. Plaza
FAX: 404-952-9561
Atlanta, Georgia, 30303-3083 USA
Computer Music, Ambient Music, Avant-garde Music
"...process itself might be the Zeitgeist of our age." - Morton Feldman
******************************************************************************
*
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ "Minimum ethic: Do what you said you'd do. \||
|/ Can't do it? Telephone. No answer?" -- John Cage \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: "Cary Wilkins" <WCARY@CLEMSON.EDU>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 94 22:08 EST
Subject: Re: I Ching, et al
On Sun, 11 Dec 1994 08:00:40 +0800 smoliar@ISS.NUS.SG(Stephen aid:
Smoliar) said:
>Peter N. Risser tries to put all of his eggs in one basket:
>>Peter Castine wrote:
>>>But Cage took the trouble to ask the I Ching what to think
>>>about using a computer to generate random numbers. I don't
>>>remember the exact response but it was definitely
>>>encouraging.
>>Did he? I don't remember that. That doesn't mean it
>>didn't happen, but I am doubtful . . .
>I just tried to find this in print . . . without success. I
>DO remember Cage mentioning this at the MIT seminar he gave.
I hope I haven't missed a response to this. In Part V of
Diary: How to Improve . . ., p. 60 of "M," Cage says:
"It took six weeks to teach the
computer how to toss three coins six
times. Somewhat worried, I tossed coins
manually to discover from the
I Ching how I Ching felt about being
programmed. It was delighted.
I Ching promised quantitative
increase of benefits for culture."
Cary Wilkins, Clemson University, Clemson, SC
wcary@clemson.edu
------------------------------
From: Amy Clark Beal <mainz@umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 09:56:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architecture
regarding the quote "writing about music is like dancing about
architecture"...
someone on the amslist recently quoted this and attributed it to Laurie
Anderson. No citation, sorry!
amy beal
------------------------------
From: terry kroetsch f <tkroetsc@mach1.wlu.ca>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 11:43:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architecture
Well EVERYONE I asked thought it was Zappa. No citation, sorry.
On Wed, 14 Dec 1994, Amy Clark Beal wrote:
> regarding the quote "writing about music is like dancing about
> architecture"...
> someone on the amslist recently quoted this and attributed it to Laurie
> Anderson. No citation, sorry!
> amy beal
>
------------------------------
From: "Alaric S. Haag - IMRlab System Manager and part-time Visigoth" <system@
imr00.me.lsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 12:33:22 CST
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architecture
MX%"silence@bga.com" writes:
> From:
MX%"silence@bga.com" 14-DEC-1994 11:57:17.44
> Subj:
Re: Dancing About Architecture
> regarding the quote "writing about music is like dancing about
> architecture"...
> someone on the amslist recently quoted this and attributed it to Laurie
> Anderson. No citation, sorry!
> amy beal
Yet another variation...My understanding (sorry again...no citation) is that
Laurie Anderson attributed it to Elvis Costello. I have a friend who thinks
she can dredge up a citation, so I will post it just as soon as I can.
Ric
%^{)
- ----
[ Alaric S. Haag, Research Associate haag@imr00.me.lsu.edu
]
[ Louisiana State University, Mech. Engr. Dept. FAX: (504) 388-5924
]
[ Baton Rouge, LA 70803 Opinions: (504) 388-5897
]
"Waiting to die is no way to live" - from "Dreams" by Kurosawa
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #1
***************************
Date sent: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 09:08:42 -0600
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #2
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Tuesday, 27 December 1994 Volume 01 : Number 002
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 17:17:52 -0500
Subject: WRUW-FM
Hi. It's me again. Just to make it official our radio station's
address and phone are:
WRUW-FM Cleveland (that's 91.1 for those of you in the area)
11220 Bellflower Road
Cleveland, OH 4416
(216)368-2208
So, if you got stuff (promos, et al) to send to us (esp. me, seeing as I do
a computer/electronic classical show) you can send it there. If you like,
you can send it c/o Peter Risser. But that's not necessary.
Chris: Your album sounds killer. It'd be great if you could spot us a
copy. Like, I said I really get into the algorithmical stuff. (anyone
heard the latest Artifact releases?)
Anyway, thanks y'all.
- -- Pete
- --
By hearing such music, seemingly so much noise, !
when I actually came upon noise in reality, ! Peter Risse
I found that I had gone up over it. ! pnr@po.cwru.ed
-- William Carlos Williams on John Cage !
------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 17:24:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architecture
>Well EVERYONE I asked thought it was Zappa. No citation, sorry.
>> regarding the quote "writing about music is like dancing about
>> architecture"...
>> someone on the amslist recently quoted this and attributed it to Laurie
>> Anderson. No citation, sorry!
No, see, the fact that these folks are quoting it makes me think that it
comes from an earlier source.
How can a quote so popular not have a known source?
Anyone?
(Elvis Costello? I don't think so.)
- --
By hearing such music, seemingly so much noise, !
when I actually came upon noise in reality, ! Peter Risse
I found that I had gone up over it. ! pnr@po.cwru.ed
-- William Carlos Williams on John Cage !
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 19:14:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Music For - suggestions?
By "uninterrupted sequence of pieces and interludes", Cage means
to take a continuous chunk of the score, not to move around randomly
within it. Better system: Use your 38 cards to pick two pieces/interludes,
one to start and one to end with.
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 19:18:05 -0500
Subject: Re: turntables
Also, Imaginary Landscape #5 uses recordings to make a live performance and/or
recorded tape. No one pays much attention to IL5, perhaps because it hides
in the shadow of the infamous 12-radio IL4, and also perhaps because it was
a very trivial piece (by Cage's own admission).
jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU
------------------------------
From: musrst@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Robert Thompson)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 23:02:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architecture
My foggy memory...
but, it occurs to me that it might have been either Christian Wolf or
Morton Feldman...and I betcha that Cage has said it too...maybe...
I hope someone has a solid lead, I need the reference yesterday...
merry/happy y'all
******************************************************************************
*
Dr. Robert Scott Thompson
musrst@gsusgi2.gsu.edu
Georgia State University
Office: 404-651-3676
School of Music, 1 Univ. Plaza
FAX: 404-952-9561
Atlanta, Georgia, 30303-3083 USA
Computer Music, Ambient Music, Avant-garde Music
"...process itself might be the Zeitgeist of our age." - Morton Feldman
******************************************************************************
*
------------------------------
From: saxmania@rci.ripco.com (Sax Therapy)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 23:22:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architecture
>
> My foggy memory...
>
> but, it occurs to me that it might have been either Christian Wolf or
> Morton Feldman...and I betcha that Cage has said it too...maybe...
> I hope someone has a solid lead, I need the reference yesterday...
> ****************************************************************************
***
what about the possibility that it could be Cage quoting Merce Cunningham.
I recall Cage mentioning conversations with Cunningham on several
occasions.
- --
_ \/ _ _ _ \ / s a u l s m a i z y s
S /=\/\ | |-| e R /-\ P | vox[312]907.8229 fax[312]907.8521
web page http://ripco.com:8080/~saxmania/
------------------------------
From: Mark_Nevins-CSCM06@email.mot.com
Date: 16 Dec 94 06:54:42 -0600
Subject: RE: Dancing About Architecture
...or what about Cage quoting Golda Meir? Jeeez, if we don't know we don't
know. Let's stop wasting time speculating on who said this until we can find
a
definitive source.
"I turned to my wife and said: 'The phone's gonna start ringing in the
morning.'"
Fred Brown, whose errant pass sealed Georgetown's loss in the 1982 NCAA
basketball finals, on watching the game-breaking illegal timeout by Michigan's
Chris Weber in this 1993's game.
Cheers, Nevdog
______________________________________________________________________________
_
To: silence@bga.com@INTERNET
Cc: saxmania@golden.ripco.com@INTERNET
From: silence@bga.com@INTERNET on Fri, Dec 16, 1994 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architecture
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 672
Precedence: bulk
>
> My foggy memory...
>
> but, it occurs to me that it might have been either Christian Wolf or
> Morton Feldman...and I betcha that Cage has said it too...maybe...
> I hope someone has a solid lead, I need the reference yesterday...
>
******************************************************************************
*
what about the possibility that it could be Cage quoting Merce Cunningham.
I recall Cage mentioning conversations with Cunningham on several
occasions.
- --
_ \/ _ _ _ \ / s a u l s m a i z y s
S /=\/\ | |-| e R /-\ P | vox[312]907.8229 fax[312]907.8521
web page http://ripco.com:8080/~saxmania/
------------------------------
From: "Jerry L Young" <jerry_l_young@riscgate.sps.mot.com>
Date: 16 Dec 1994 07:51:51 U
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architect
Reply to: RE>>Dancing About Architecture
Mark Nevins said
>...or what about Cage quoting Golda Meir? Jeeez, if we don't know we don't
>know. Let's stop wasting time speculating on who said this until we can
find a
>definitive source.
Thanks Mark for putting this out of our misery.
>"I turned to my wife and said: 'The phone's gonna start ringing in the
>morning.'"
>
>Fred Brown,
Are you sure it was Fred Brown who said this?
Here's a Cage-related question I have wondered about. Has anyone ever seen
(or better yet, does anyone remember) the performance of les noces that
Cunningham choreographed at Brandeis University (in the late '40s if I
remember). Cunningham does't remember much about it other than that the
pianos were on stage and the stage was so small that the dancers had to
squeeze between them to get on and off stage, and that that affected what he
could do with the entrances and exits. Likewise, I've always been curious
about the choreography to Louis Moreau Gottschallk's "The Banjo." Strange to
imagine Tudor playing this.
Also, has there ever turned up a videotape or kinescope of Cage on "I've Got
a Secret?" doing "WaterWalk?"
Jerry
------------------------------
From: toyoji <toyoji@ella.mills.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 09:39:54 +48000
Subject: Re: Music For - suggestions?
Jamey,
WOW!...I think you might be RIGHT.
Now I feel guilty...the performance already happened -- BUT NEXT
TIME!...
Thanks.
toyoji
On Thu, 15 Dec 1994, Jamey Pritchett wrote:
> By "uninterrupted sequence of pieces and interludes", Cage means
> to take a continuous chunk of the score, not to move around randomly
> within it. Better system: Use your 38 cards to pick two pieces/interludes,
> one to start and one to end with.
>
> James Pritchett
> jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU
>
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 13:32:52 600
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architect
"Jerry L Young" <jerry_l_young@riscgate.sps.mot.com> wrote
> Also, has there ever turned up a videotape or kinescope of Cage on "I've Got
> a Secret?" doing "WaterWalk?"
"I've Got a Secret"?!
Nope, but I do have a transcript of Cage's appearance on "Lascio o
Raddoppia" in 1958. It's in an Italian book/magazine which may be an
issue of "Sonora" (I can't quite tell; my Italian is week). It also
contains a CD containing version of "Ryoanji", "Two", and others
(maddenly, it can't play on any CD player I have), and (to completely
wander off topic) the most complete Cage bibli/disc/vide/ography I've
ever seen (which, BTW, says that "The Beatles 1962-1970" was composed
in 1990).
Parenthetically yours....
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/Online Liaison, 3rd Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \||
|/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: David W Patterson <dwp1@columbia.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 94 18:47:20 EST
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architect
Dear Jerry,
My own notes on Cage have the following entry for the performance of
Les Noces you mention. Not much on that work itself, since I'm more
interested in the electronic portions of the program. Hope it's
useful.
6/14/1952 Waltham, MA/Brandeis Univ., Ullman Amphitheatre,
8:30p./JCA, 1952 file; CDA, Programs 1952-1955 file
Event: Cunningham dance recital. [Cage not in attendance.]
Program: Two different choreographies to Excerpts from Symphonie pour
un Homme Seul [Pierre Schaeffer], the "First performance of musique
concrete in the United States." [Program notes] Version I - solo.
Version II - Cunningham, w/ Natayna Neumann; Joan Skinner; Anneliese
Widman; Joanne Finkelor, Jo Anne Melsher, Marianne Preger, Greta
Rosenzweig, Remy Charlip; Ben Garber; Donald McKayle. First of three
works on a program w/ Stravinsky's Les Noces and Weill's Threepenny
Opera.
Notes: Part of Festival of the Creative Arts (6/12-15). Leonard
Bernstein directs the festival, meant to celebrate Brandeis's first
commencement. 3,100 (capacity audience) attend this performance.
--David Patterson
Columbia University
------------------------------
From: David W Patterson <dwp1@columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 94 10:15:24 EST
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architect
Jerry--
P.S. JCA and CDA are my abbreviations for the John Cage Archives at
Northwestern University and the Cunningham Dance Archives here in New
York.
-David Patterson
Columbia University
dwp1@columbia.edu
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 14:45:26 600
Subject: Cage in September Neue Zeitschrift fur Musik
This may be old news for y'all, but... I just ran across what appears
to be a good series of articles on Cage/Cunningham/Tudor in the
September Neue Zeitschrift fur Musik.
It includes a mesostic I hadn't seen before; the spine is 'THE READY
MADE BOOMERANG ALTERNATIVES TO HARMONY CHANCE OPERATIONS SILENCE
THEATRE NO GOVERNMENT NO EDUCATION". (The beginning of it, come to
think of it, is in the liner notes to a Deep Listening Band album).
It also has several articles, a poem about "Ryoanji" by Klaus
Schoening, and reviews of several recordings and books (including
James Pritchett's "The Music of John Cage").
I can't say how good the content is, though -- it's going to take me
a while to plow through this with what's left of my high-school
training in German and a dictionary.
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: ckk@uchicago.edu
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 15:12:41 -0600
Subject: FANFARE magazine?
FANFARE magazine is going to review my computer music CD "Brains" in their
May/June 1995 issue. Do any of you ever read this magazine? It's the world's
most widely circulated magazine about classical music, or something like that?
It's available on newsstands everywhere, I guess.
The editor told me that he gets letters from people asking for more coverage
of "new music" sorts of recordings, so they're very interested in reviewing my
CD and other things like it. Maybe more of you should write to them and
express your interest in seeing them cover more post-Cagean things, give them
suggestions etc.
Also Stephen Smoliar thought that my CD is available in US record stores (the
conversation was about Cleveland, in particular) but unfortunately it's only
available currently via mail order, either from me (cheap, only $8, slow poor
service :-) or from Wayside Music (more expensive, $13 plus shipping, but well
established commercial indie mail order catalog). Of course if your local
indie record shop wants to carry a few copies, that would be great, have them
contact me.
Sorry for the semi-commercial message, I really don't want anyone to even
remotely suspect/accuse me of "spamming" but someday my small independent run
of weird music CD's might be valuable collector's items and you on the Net are
the only lucky few people who know about it ....
Chris Koenigsberg
ckk@uchicago.edu
CD address:
PWOA Productions
Suite 705-405
1163 E. Ogden Ave.
Naperville, IL. 60563 USA
------------------------------
From: John L Walters <walters@gn.apc.org>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 01:10:39 GMT
Subject: rolywholyover
What do you think of Rolywholyover, A Circus? This is the catalogue
to the Cage exhibition at MOCA in LA - a kind of exploded fine art
book in a shiny metal box. Everyone that I show my copy to gets very
excited, but I've seen no reviews or reactions from musicians and
artists from further afield.
John L Walters, editor, unknown public, uk
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 22:28:28 600
Subject: Re: FANFARE magazine?
Chris Koenigsberg (ckk@uchicago.edu) writes:
> FANFARE magazine is going to review my computer music CD "Brains" in their
> May/June 1995 issue. Do any of you ever read this magazine? It's the world's
> most widely circulated magazine about classical music, or something like tha
t?
> It's available on newsstands everywhere, I guess.
Congratulations! FANFARE does intelligent, informed reviews of the
stuff that I read reviews of, that is, Cage, Feldman, Glass, et al.
I usually thumb through copies at the Austin Tower Records, but I
see it at most large magazine racks I encounter.
> Sorry for the semi-commercial message, I really don't want anyone to even
> remotely suspect/accuse me of "spamming" but someday my small independent ru
n
> of weird music CD's might be valuable collector's items and you on the Net a
re
> the only lucky few people who know about it ....
Those of you who are interested in the far reaches of music might
really go for this; a lot of it might appeal to fans of "Cartridge
Music" and Throbbing Gristle. A lot of sounds you probably have never
heard before, with a strong sense of humor. Not recommended for dogs
or the very nervous, but otherwise worthwhile. I'd give it a
sqrt(-1); it's got a meme, you can twitch to it :-)
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 22:19:42 600
Subject: Re: rolywholyover
> What do you think of Rolywholyover, A Circus? This is the catalogue
> to the Cage exhibition at MOCA in LA - a kind of exploded fine art
> book in a shiny metal box. Everyone that I show my copy to gets very
> excited, but I've seen no reviews or reactions from musicians and
> artists from further afield.
I wasn't aware this was published yet! What's the publishing info?
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: "Jerry L Young" <jerry_l_young@riscgate.sps.mot.com>
Date: 21 Dec 1994 07:38:19 U
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architect
Reply to: RE>>Dancing About Architect
Me>>
Joe Zitt>
>> Also, has there ever turned up a videotape or kinescope of Cage on "I've
Got
>> a Secret?" doing "WaterWalk?"
>
>"I've Got a Secret"?!
Yes. When I learned about this, it had not been in such distant history and I
am pretty sure I saw this. I seem to remember that there was something set up
backstage and at the end of the program, the contestants went backstage to
wander around in it. Somehow the image of John Cage sitting next to Gary
Moore in this familiar set seems like an unlikely image -- like the album
cover that Salvador Dali did for Jackie Gleason.
The date of the I've Got a Secret appearance was Jan. 1960, according to the
old Edition Peters monograph. -- my copy is very old (1962). Was it ever
updated? It's interesting to read through this -- it gives performance
details of a lot of early performance. One particularly tantalizing entry for
Winter Music led by Berio in May 1962. Two of the performers listed -- Philip
Lesh and Tom Constanten -- later became members of the Grateful Dead. Berio
and Lukas Foss played the piece a few weeks later.
>Nope, but I do have a transcript of Cage's appearance on "Lascio o
>Raddoppia" in 1958. It's in an Italian book/magazine which may be an
>issue of "Sonora" (I can't quite tell; my Italian is week). It also
>contains a CD containing version of "Ryoanji", "Two", and others
>(maddenly, it can't play on any CD player I have), and (to completely
>wander off topic) the most complete Cage bibli/disc/vide/ography I've
>ever seen (which, BTW, says that "The Beatles 1962-1970" was composed
>in 1990).
Do you have information on how to get this?
Jerry
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 13:45:36 600
Subject: Re: Dancing About Architecture
"Jerry L Young" <jerry_l_young@riscgate.sps.mot.com> writes:
>> Joe Zitt>
> >Nope, but I do have a transcript of Cage's appearance on "Lascio o
> >Raddoppia" in 1958. It's in an Italian book/magazine which may be an
> >issue of "Sonora" (I can't quite tell; my Italian is week)
>
> Do you have information on how to get this?
I got mine in a small record store in Philadelphia. Here's what I am
guessing is the useful info:
Itinerari Oltre Il Suono
John Cage
Sommario
a cura di Giampiero Bigazzi
(c) Materiali Sonori Edizioni Musicalli snc., corso Italia, 74 -
52027 S.Giovanni Valdarno
Sonora, Intenerari Oltre Il Suono
via Trieste 35, 52027, San Giovanni Valdarno, Italia
tel. 055.9120363/9122700/943888 - fax, 055.9120370
Distribuzione: Materiali Sonori scari
Distribuzione in Italia: Good Stuff, Roma
Distribuzione nelle librere: Joo Distribution, Milano
(or, since we're both in Austin, you could borrow my copy.)
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 20:06:42 +0800
Subject: Dancing About Architect
Me>> = Jerry L. Young
>
>Me>>
>Joe Zitt>
>
>>> Also, has there ever turned up a videotape or kinescope of Cage on "I've
>Got
>>> a Secret?" doing "WaterWalk?"
>>
>>"I've Got a Secret"?!
>
>Yes. When I learned about this, it had not been in such distant history and I
>am pretty sure I saw this. I seem to remember that there was something set up
>backstage and at the end of the program, the contestants went backstage to
>wander around in it.
I just went back to consult Calvin Tomkins' essay in THE BRIDE AND THE
BACHELORS. This all sounds like a somewhat distorted account of Cage's
appearance on LASCIA O RADDOPPIA. When Cage appeared as a contestant on
this program, he agreed to perform one of his compositions before answering
his questions each week that he appeared. WATER WALK was a theater piece whic
h
he composed for his second appearance. This was a very intricate piece
involving precise timing in manipulating a large number of objects--hardly
the sort of piece which could be performed by other contestants. Since WATER
WALK was composed explicitly for this Italian television appearance, I am not
sure if it was ever performed again.
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet: smoliar@iss.nus.sg
FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: "Jerry L Young" <jerry_l_young@riscgate.sps.mot.com>
Date: 27 Dec 1994 09:04:15 U
Subject: Whittling about Speculating
Reply to: Whittling about Speculating
Stephen Smoliar expresses his doubts:
Me: even multiples of >
Joe Zitt: >>>
Stephen Smoliar: >
>>>> Also, has there ever turned up a videotape or kinescope of Cage on "I've
>>>>Got a Secret?" doing "WaterWalk?"
>>>
>>>"I've Got a Secret"?!
>>
>>Yes. When I learned about this, it had not been in such distant history and
I
>>am pretty sure I saw this. I seem to remember that there was something set
up
>>backstage and at the end of the program, the contestants went backstage to
>>wander around in it.
>I just went back to consult Calvin Tomkins' essay in THE BRIDE AND THE
>BACHELORS. This all sounds like a somewhat distorted account of Cage's
>appearance on LASCIA O RADDOPPIA. When Cage appeared as a contestant on
>this program, he agreed to perform one of his compositions before answering
>his questions each week that he appeared. WATER WALK was a theater piece
which
>he composed for his second appearance. This was a very intricate piece
>involving precise timing in manipulating a large number of objects--hardly
>the sort of piece which could be performed by other contestants.
You should have read the rest of my post before you ran to your copy of
Tomkins' book. I don't mean for this to be a flame on this gentle, fledgling
list, but I don't mind your detecting this post being a little warm to the
touch. Your post sounds like a somewhat distorted reading of my last note (or
perhaps a distorted writing of my last note that didn't take into account
what you might infer from my use of the word"contestants" I tend not to think
of musicians as contestants except for in a few pieces by Xenakis or Zorn or
a few others, and in the context of "I've Got a Secret" I somehow thought
there was some sort of gravitational pull that would make it clear that I
meant the four contestants on "I've Got a Secret" and not performers in
Water Walk. (For the same reason that if i said "linemen" in the context of a
discussion about football you would more likely think of the guys with the
helmets than the folks who painted the stripes). Can't name all four of the
regular I've Got a Secret contestants with certainty, but I am sure that
Harry Morgan was one and I think Audrey Meadows and Bill Cullen were also.
This was a favorite show in my family while I was growing up -- along with
What's My Line and To Tell the Truth.
Some collateral, which you may skip.
To give you a bit of background, sometimes the "secret" would involve some
little demonstration -- I remember one in which they one guest showed how a
light beam could be used to switch something on and off. Garry Moore broke
the beam with his hand and the picture on the screen went blank. They made it
seem like television history, so I paid close attention. Another time a guest
brought some superviscous material that could be made to flow upwards (once
you started pouring it you could move the cup that was receiving the material
above the one from which it was being poured and it would continue to flow
upwards). It was pretty neat and evidently memorable stuff. But I also
remember one show where they had some very strange artistic installation
backstage done by some artist and at the end of the show everyone went
backstage. It all seemed pretty strange to me, and I have wondered if it was
the episode that Cage was on (in January of 1962). I became interested in
Cage about six years later.
For what it's worth, my memory of what may have been seeing this was at my
Grandmother's house in Illinois, whom we would visit only at Christmas and
during summer vacation. When I checked the Peters catalog a couple of weeks
ago I noticed that it said the show aired in Jan 1962, and it is curious to
note that because of a blizzard and my mother's fear of driving through the
Appalachian Mountains in snow that we were stranded in Illinois for so long
that we had to enroll in school and left at the end of January. Anyway, this
is of some interest to me, and I would love to see the original show to see
if it is what I remember. You can see why that might amuse me.
End of personal recollections.
Anyway, I belabor this point because you expressed skepticism about Cage
being on "I've Got a Secret." I'm not sure why your skepticism should matter
to me, but it does. And besides, those rare visits of our "avant-garde" to
popular culture seem to stick out as noteworthy -- like Dali's cover for
Jackie Gleason's album "Lonesime Echo."
>Since WATER
>WALK was composed explicitly for this Italian television appearance, I am
not
>sure if it was ever performed again.
Let me indulge just one little sizzle here. We suffered a month here in
"Silence" reading people proclaim their "not being sure" of who originally
made the statement about "dancing about architecture." I will admit to you
that I would have prefered silence from Silence. Stephen. I've read your
insightful and informed commentary here and elsewhere (this is not sarcasm)
about Cage, Cunningham, and other stuff that interests me a lot, but it
surprises me that you would go to the trouble of responding with "I am not
sure if it was ever performed again" -- especially in the face of my citation
(deleted from your response). Or did that little reference not actually make
it into my post (along with my citing the odd little tidbit in the catalog
about Berio leading a performance of Winter Music at Mills College in 1962
that included two pianists who later were in the Grateful Dead? If so I will
name the reference again -- The little catalog/monograph Peters and Henmar
published in 1962.
In that catalog and under "Water Walk," there are references not only to the
Italian game show appearance but also on "I've Got A Secret' and on a local
program that Harry Morgan hosted in NYC -- I don't remember offhand if his
show was a radio show or a TV show -- but we can always look it up. I also
remember shows in which Harry Morgan excused himself because he already knew
who the guest was. Perhaps this was one of them. By the way. Morgan seemed to
be an interesting guy, despite the fact that he was a '50s/'60s TV
personality. It would be interesting to see whether he mentions Cage in any
of his books (or if the appearance is mentioned in books about I've Got a
Secret").
Now on to better things,
Jerry
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #2
***************************
Date sent: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 01:27:33 -0600
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #3
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Monday, 2 January 1995 Volume 01 : Number 003
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Allen <STRANGE@SJSUVM1.sjsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 08:02:06 PST
Subject: Re: Whittling about Speculating
I believe the 4th person on the What's My Line was Dorothy Killgalen (spelling
?). I'm sure John would get a great kick from these conversations.
Allen Strange
------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 12:20:40 -0500
Subject: IChing
I'm reading Cage's biography by David Revill and it says on page 132 the
following:
At no point did he seriously consider replacing [the I-Ching] with a
random number generator. "I have confidence in the I-Ching. It's the
oldest book in the world." His confidence is, he admitted, "a value
system, but based on nothing more positive in me than sentimentality...
I'm full of these inconsistencies and see no reason why I shouldn't be."
The quote is attributed to an interview from _Panorama-Chicago Daily News_,
May 10, 1969.
So there, in his own words I suppose is the answer I was looking for.
I'm enjoying reading this biograhy, for even if the writing style is not
the greatest, it's nice to know what was going on behind the scenes so to
speak; to get a little history of the times, etc.
Does anyone know how accurate the portrayal is? It sounds like he had
Cage's help and blessing for a while.
Also, can anyone recommend a recording of the Three Dances for Two Prepared
Pianos? One dance or movement of a dance is on the Koch International Cage
tribute and I'd like to hear the others.
- --
By hearing such music, seemingly so much noise, !
when I actually came upon noise in reality, ! Peter Risse
I found that I had gone up over it. ! pnr@po.cwru.ed
-- William Carlos Williams on John Cage !
------------------------------
From: James Pritchett <Jamesp@pgi.petersons.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 12:30:00 EST
Subject: David Revill's book
David Revill's book drew heavily upon various other people's work (including
my own), frequently without attribution (his discussion of the compositional
techniques of the early 1950s is entirely taken from my dissertation, which
he somehow "forgot" to list in the notes and bibliography). The book,
needless to say, is not well thought of in the Cage-studies community
(neither is Revill).
James Pritchett
jamesp@pgi.petersons.com
------------------------------
From: "Jerry L Young" <jerry_l_young@riscgate.sps.mot.com>
Date: 27 Dec 1994 11:32:59 U
Subject: Re: IChing
Reply to: RE>IChing
Peter Risser asks:
>Also, can anyone recommend a recording of the Three Dances for Two
>Prepared Pianos? One dance or movement of a dance is on the Koch
>International Cage tribute and I'd like to hear the others.
You might like the recording on Attacca Babel disc with Gerard Bouwhuis and
Cees van Zeeland. It also has a 2-piano arrangement of Stravinsky's "Agon,"
which is nice to hear in this barebones arrangement, and an arrangement of
Louis Andriessen's "De Staat."
Jerry Young
------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 13:24:24 EST
Subject: RE: David Revill's book
James Pritchett <Jamesp@pgi.petersons.com> writes:
>David Revill's book drew heavily upon various other people's work (including
>my own), frequently without attribution (his discussion of the compositional
>techniques of the early 1950s is entirely taken from my dissertation, which
>he somehow "forgot" to list in the notes and bibliography). The book,
>needless to say, is not well thought of in the Cage-studies community
>(neither is Revill).
I just want to second this opinion. I'm currently working on a
Cage project (of which you'll hear more about, soon), and Revill's lack of
documentation of certain facts is incredibly frustrating. You're not sure
whether to think that he divulged his own insights or whether he lifted them
from unnamed sources. And the manner of "endnotes" (not to give a
reference number but to just list the page number and phrase at the
back of the book) strikes me as incredibly stupid and bothersome (though
it's probably the fault of the publisher).
RE: Architecture: I've seen the quote, and it IS by Cage - but I'd have
to hunt around to find it.
RE: Xenia - can NO ONE out there tell me what gallery or museum with
which she was associated? Thanks.
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music
Librarian
Graduate Center
Music Division
City University of New York
The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
kosovsky@nyplgate.nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions----
---
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 13:51:03 600
Subject: Three Dances for Two Prepared Pianos
pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser) writes:
> Also, can anyone recommend a recording of the Three Dances for Two Prepared
> Pianos? One dance or movement of a dance is on the Koch International Cage
> tribute and I'd like to hear the others.
The version on "A Chance Operation" is ... um ... curious. To do it,
Patrick Moraz used a MIDI sequencer trigger prepared piano samples.
Ingenious, and it sounds good, but it seems like a point has been
missed.
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: kparks@its.brooklyn.cuny.edu (Kevin Parks --staff music)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 20:45:51 EST
Subject: Re: David Revill's book
Yes, the David Revill is really crappy, I disliked it a great deal.
I forced myself to read most of it, and i must say that i learned next
to nothing new buy reading it. I really hated the thing, for reasons
greater than it's generally feeble literary style. Most of the interesting
things are taken from other places and just recast in a most uninteresting man
ner.
Just read Silence, and all the other primary sources. James Pritchett's
book is really the only good one outside of Cage' own stuff. In fact, Pritche
tt's
is an excellent read in many ways. I enh
enjoyed it very much. We'll see what Mark Swed does soon.
I see that 101 is do out one mode some time soon - can't wait.
If it is anything like 103 we're in for a real treat. 103 is one of the
greatest orchestra pieces i have ever heard in my life (how's that)!
Cheers all - sorry about all the typos but my modem is too slow and i am
too lazy to go back and make this all look pretty.
kevin parks
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 20:57:22 600
Subject: Cage Text Online?
This may just be addled memory of a garbled story, but...
I remembered hearing about ten years ago that Cage had published a
text via the Well rather than hardcopy so that the text would be more
accessible to people. Is this true? What was the text? Is it
available to people not on the Well?
If it is, and we can get at it, I'll try to put a link to it on my
web page.
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: "Jerry L Young" <jerry_l_young@riscgate.sps.mot.com>
Date: 27 Dec 1994 22:27:55 U
Subject: Water Walk
Reply to: Water Walk
The Edition Peters Catalog (titled "John Cage") lists three performances of
Water Walk all for televsion -- one in Milan, Jan 1959, the second on the
Henry Morgan Show, June 1959, and the third on I've Got A Secret, Jan. 1960.
Earlier I had remembered incorrectly that the performance was in 1962.
In the notes for the piece provided in the catalog, Cage says that the
materials for the tape used in the performance are the same as for Fontana
Mix and that Water Walk led to his composing the Theater Piece.He reassures
us that "the large number of properties required is easily available given
the facilities of a television broadcasting company." Duration is 3 minutes.
Earlier I said Harry Morgan earlier meaning instead to say Henry. Harry
Morgan was of course famous back then for being Pete on December Bride and
Pete and Gladys and later Col. Potter on M.A.S.H. Henry was a good deal more
irascible.
Jerry
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 13:19:54 +0800
Subject: Whittling about Speculating
Why do I get the feeling that Jerry Young doth protest a bit too much over my
response to his account of "I've Got a Secret?" I must admit that I was more
than a little baffled over his reference to a "monograph" from Peters. It too
k
a while for my feeble little brain to figure out that he was talking about the
Peters catalogue. (Wouldn't it be nice if that were now updated to the time o
f
Cage's death? Well, I suppose a lot of other equally valuable things would be
nice, too.)
Once I was clear on Jerry's source, I was able to confirm that three
performances of "Water Walk" were recorded. These were all on television,
since the work IS, as the catalogue says, a "solo television performance."
The first performance was in Italy--the appearance on LASCIA O RADDOPIA for
which the work was composed. The second occurred half a year later, in June
of 1959, on the "Henry Morgan Show," which was then airing on Channel 13. The
"I've Got a Secret" performance took place in January of 1960, or so says the
Peters catalogue. So I am not too sure how this all jives with Jerry being at
his grandmother's house during the great blizzard of January 1962. Also, sinc
e
the work is a solo piece with very demanding timing requirements (as Calvin
Tomkins observed), I really wonder whether or not the "I've Got a Secret"
panelists actually performed the work. Given that the piece is only three
minutes long, it is more likely that Cage performed it, after which everyone
got to play around with all the properties he had assembled. I suppose the
best way to check this out would be to see if The Museum of Broadcasting has
a recording of that program, which is a bit tricky for me at this distance.
(Bob, you seem a bit more strategically placed to resolve this one!)
Henry Morgan, by the way, had a very sharp wit and may have even had an
intellect to match it. I would be curious as to whether or not he allowed
the performance of "Water Walk" as an object of ridicule. My guess is that
he did not. He may even have been the influence that led to it being performe
d
one final time for "I've Got a Secret."
As long as we are stumbling down Memory Lane, my own fondest memory is of the
night that Seji Ozawa appeared before the panel of "What's My Line?" I really
kicked myself for not recognizing his name when he signed in. He was
Bernstein's assistant at the time and had even appeared on one of the
Children's Concert broadcasts, unless I am mistaken.
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet: smoliar@iss.nus.sg
FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 19:20:05 +0800
Subject: IChing
Peter N. Risser writes:
>
>I'm reading Cage's biography by David Revill and it says on page 132 the
>following:
>
> At no point did he seriously consider replacing [the I-Ching] with a
> random number generator. "I have confidence in the I-Ching. It's the
> oldest book in the world." His confidence is, he admitted, "a value
> system, but based on nothing more positive in me than sentimentality...
> I'm full of these inconsistencies and see no reason why I shouldn't be."
>
>The quote is attributed to an interview from _Panorama-Chicago Daily News_,
>May 10, 1969.
>
>So there, in his own words I suppose is the answer I was looking for.
>
>Does anyone know how accurate the portrayal is?
Notwithstanding at least two of the critical observations about Revill, there
is also the problem of the timing of this interview. It is just too close to
the HPSCHD experience. Thus, it precedes those instances previously cited of
Cage using computer output. In other words the answer at this particular poin
t
in time just does not generalize to much of Cage's subsequent work.
>
>Also, can anyone recommend a recording of the Three Dances for Two Prepared
>Pianos?
I happen to like the performance by Joshua Pierce and Dorothy Jonas on the
second volume of the Wergo collection, but then I am pretty happy with the
entire Wergo collection.
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet: smoliar@iss.nus.sg
FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: "Jerry L Young" <jerry_l_young@riscgate.sps.mot.com>
Date: 28 Dec 1994 09:41:25 U
Subject: Re: Whittling about Speculat
Reply to: RE>Whittling about Speculating
Steve asks rhetorically
>Why do I get the feeling that Jerry Young doth protest a bit too much over
my
>response to his account of "I've Got a Secret?"
Dammit Steve, I protest because you dismissed my pointing up the fact that
Cage was on I've got a Secret as a distortion of an excerpt from Calvin
Tomkins book and because you persist in suggesting that i am silly enough to
have asserted that Henry Morgan, and the other I've Got a Secret contestants
performed Water Walk.
But you are halfway there -- you now realize that he was on the show and that
Water Walk was performed, as i had said, but you are still confused in
thinking that I believe that the four celebrity contestants actually
performed the work (despite my attempt to set you straight in my last post) .
So, dang it, I must protest too much some more. Hope I'll be done soon, as I
feel our fellow listmembers will be happy not to hear more from me on this.
You said
>Also, since
>the work is a solo piece with very demanding timing requirements (as Calvin
>Tomkins observed), I really wonder whether or not the "I've Got a Secret"
>panelists actually performed the work. Given that the piece is only three
>minutes long, it is more likely that Cage performed it, after which everyone
>got to play around with all the properties he had assembled. I suppose the
>best way to check this out would be to see if The Museum of Broadcasting has
>a recording of that program, which is a bit tricky for me at this distance.
>(Bob, you seem a bit more strategically placed to resolve this one!)
I still didn't notice anyone here suggesting that those four celebrity
contestants actually played Water Walk. I'll take my best shot at guessing
how you came by this misapprehension. In the part of my post that you copied
in your first response, I wrote the following:
>I seem to remember that there was something set up
>backstage and at the end of the program, the contestants went backstage to
>wander around in it.
If this is in fact responsible for your confusion, don't read "contestants"
as "musicians" and don't read "wander around in it" as "performed the piece."
Looking forward to not finding myself at odds with you over this but of
silliness.
Jerry
------------------------------
From: Josh Ronsen <rons@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 23:26:56 -0600
Subject: Cage Brutally Taunted on MST3k! Thrice!!!
I have been keeping track of every instance I see of those meta-movie
guys at Mystery Science Theatre 3000 poking fun at, let's face it:
mocking, John Cage. So far, I have observed three seperate instances:
(for those of you not in the know, MST3k is about two mad scientists
who send an innocent guy into space and force him to watch cheesy
movies. The guy rebels by building intelligent robots who assist him
in launching a tirade of abusive comments at the movies as they watch
them.)
1) A mummified alien is hiding in the boiler room of a college campus.
A guy goes down to the boiler room and hears the mummy knock over some
boxes or chains. COMMENT: "I didn't realize they were having the John
Cage concert in the boiler room!"
2) A jazz pianist, who has murdered his sweetie, is distraught over
his sweetie's ghost coming back to haunt him. At one point he
violently slams his fist on his piano keyboard, producing a
dissonance. COMMENT: "Oh, so you studied under John Cage."
3) As a guy is looking at some records on a bookshelf, alien creatures
hiding in the basement begin to make odd chirping/buzzing noise.
COMMENT: "Maybe if I find something catchy they will take off the John
Cage record..."
I can't remember any of the names of these movies, except 1) might be
called "Mummy From Mars/Space". I will be on the lookout for any more
of this mocking.
- -Josh
rons@midway.uchicago
------------------------------
From: amanue!jr@vax.cs.pitt.edu (Jim Rosenberg)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 1994 00:29:54 -40962758 (EST)
Subject: Re: Cage Text Online?
Joseph Zitt (jzitt@humansystems.com) writes:
> I remembered hearing about ten years ago that Cage had published a
> text via the Well rather than hardcopy so that the text would be more
> accessible to people. Is this true? What was the text?
Yes, this is true. The text is called "The First Meeting of the Satie
Society". The WELL began by offering its own conferencing system, and USENET
and Internet access followed later; the Satie Society piece was made available
through the ACEN (ArtCom Electronic Network) conference. I waited to answer
this message to check to see if it is still there, and it is. If you have
an account on The WELL, enter the PicoSpan conferencing system (if that is
not your default shell) join the acen conference, go to the Art Gallery, and
it will be #1 on the menu.
> Is it available to people not on the Well?
I'm afraid I don't know the definitive answer to this. The WELL is a paying
system, but has a quite enlightened policy that the poster of information
owns the words. Thus, I would assume the rights to this piece are owned by
John Cage's estate (unless he assigned them at some point.) *Technically* it
should be possible for a WELL user with a home page to link the files from
this piece onto the Web; (unless PicoSpan is running setuid); whether The
WELL a policy on this point I have no idea.
I suggest you E-mail Fred Truck at fjt@well.sf.ca.us and ask about this. I
don't know if he is still active on ACEN, but he is still active on The WELL
and I believe he organized putting this piece on ACEN.
- --
Jim Rosenberg -- cgh!amanue!jr
CIS: 71515,124 UUCP: / / |
WELL: jer dsi.com pitt! ditka!
Internet: amanue!jr@vax.cs.pitt.edu
------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 12:28:08 -0500
Subject: RE: David Revill's book
Okay, so David lifted a lot of his information from unnamed sources, which
(as we've seen) is likely to piss off said sources. But as a history, how
accurate is it? Should I believe everything (anything) I read?
I agree that reading the source materials is essential, and I have. But
reading Silence doesn't give me the context that the biography gives me.
The one thing that I really like about this biography (and it's not really
this book, but any biography) is that now I'm getting some of the background
behind the works and the person. The book helps place the story in time
and gives all the events a context.
Is there another, better work that does this?
And while we're on the subject of authors, what's the general consensus
about Richard Kostalanetz?
And one more thing: One day I checked out the scores to both Water Music
and 4'33" from our music school library and graphically they were both very
beautiful. I've always wanted copies of my own. Since then I have moved
away and have not been able to find copies. Do any of you have an address
of a publishing company I can write to to order copies of these works for
myself? I would be very happy if you did.
>RE: Architecture: I've seen the quote, and it IS by Cage - but I'd have
>to hunt around to find it.
Ya, but after so many other credits, I need HARD proof.
- --
By hearing such music, seemingly so much noise, !
when I actually came upon noise in reality, ! Peter Risse
I found that I had gone up over it. ! pnr@po.cwru.ed
-- William Carlos Williams on John Cage !
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 07:27:45 +0800
Subject: RE: David Revill's book
>
>Okay, so David lifted a lot of his information from unnamed sources, which
>(as we've seen) is likely to piss off said sources. But as a history, how
>accurate is it? Should I believe everything (anything) I read?
Being sloppy about your sources is not just a matter of failing to acknowledge
all the right names. If you are going to use a source, good technique obliges
you to furnish not only the WHO but also the WHEN and the WHERE (i.e. the
context in which the material was communicated). Our recent discussion on
Cage's attitude towards computer-generated I CHING consultations is a good
case in point. In the period between the beginning of the HPSCHD project
and the end of his life, Cage went through several major shifts in attitude
towards the computer, not only for making chance decisions but also, in his
late work, for constructing mesostics. To portray Cage as having only a singl
e
attitude is to trivialize, and to ignore the historical context for the
justification of that portrayal is to distort. I suppose, then, that the
bottom line is you should only believe what you can confirm through more
reliable sources (just like any good journalist).
> And while we're on the subject of authors, what's the general consensus
>about Richard Kostalanetz?
>
I remember when his first book (JOHN CAGE) came out. It's primary advantage
was that it was more up-to-date than the Tomkins profile or the Peters Catalog
.
Needless to say, it did not stay up-to-date very long. I remember a
conversation with Cage in 1971 during which he said what he liked least
about the book was that Kostelanetz kept pestering him to talk about what
he DID NOT LIKE. Cage felt it was contrary to his philosophy to do so and
ultimately capitulated with some general remarks about the German people which
I suspect he later regretted. I also have a copy of CONVERSING WITH CAGE but
have not really looked into it yet. My personal feeling is that what we most
need is an update of the Peters Catalog, generalized to include non-Peters
material as well.
> One day I checked out the scores to both Water Music
>and 4'33" from our music school library and graphically they were both very
>beautiful. I've always wanted copies of my own. Since then I have moved
>away and have not been able to find copies. Do any of you have an address
>of a publishing company I can write to to order copies of these works for
>myself?
The most recent Cage score I bought was "Etudes Australes." (I regard finding
this in Singapore as nothing short of a miracle.) This is a 1975 composition,
and the score gives the address of Henmar Press as 373 Park Avenue South, New
York, NY 10016. I have no idea if Henmar still exists at that address or at
any other. I also see that this address was given as the New York address of
C. F. Peters in my copy of WALTZES BY 25 CONTEMPORARY COMPOSERS. My guess is
that Peters still has an office in New York somewhere, even if it is no longer
at this address.
By the way, my copy of "Etudes Australes" has a rather extensive list of
Cage's compositions on the back cover. This list begins "for details see
our Contemporary Music Catalogue." Has anyone seen this? Is Peters keeping
it up to date?
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet: smoliar@iss.nus.sg
FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 20:04:29 600
Subject: RE: David Revill's book
> To portray Cage as having only a single
> attitude is to trivialize, and to ignore the historical context for the
> justification of that portrayal is to distort. I suppose, then, that the
> bottom line is you should only believe what you can confirm through more
> reliable sources (just like any good journalist).
That's one thing that really struck me about James Pritchett's book
- -- the idea that Cage changed his mind about things over his long
life, while retrospectively obvious, was one that I hadn't seen
mentioned.
That's the problem I see with Kostelanetz's "Conversing with Cage",
by the way: it hops around interviews and timeframes in a messy
manner (although it does mention in the back where things are from),
creating a sort of postmodern Frankenstein of a text. Good for
mesostics, perhaps, but less so for books one reads for information.
> By the way, my copy of "Etudes Australes" has a rather extensive list of
> Cage's compositions on the back cover. This list begins "for details see
> our Contemporary Music Catalogue." Has anyone seen this? Is Peters keeping
> it up to date?
It is kept up to date, from what I can tell. I got a copy last year
(now off in storage, out of reach) from C F Peters in NYC.
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: kparks@its.brooklyn.cuny.edu (Kevin Parks --staff music)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 95 02:26:34 EST
Subject: RE: David Revill's book
The value of Kostelanetz's "Conversing with Cage"
is that it brings together many interesting snipits
of interviews that are otherwise difficult to find since they are
published in journals. I LOVE the book, it is a great deal of fun.
If your looking for an orderly, scholarly book your looking in the wrong place
.
There isn't even an index. But i have gotten quite a lot out of that book and
i
think that it is sad that is going out of print. It is especially fun to read
in the bathroom or on the subway. And believe me i am the
last one to run to Kostelanetz's defense (don't ask!).
The contemporary catalogue from 1990 is still available from
C.F. Peters and they still have an office in NYC at the park ave south.
address mentioned in the previous posts. But last year Peters
put out a publication brochure that includes just about all of cage's
published scores, their year of composition and their cat #.
It is very good and handy to have. But be sure to get the numerical
price list as well because the prices are not in the brochure.
For those of you folks trying to hunt down Cage scores
just call Patelson's. They dont stock anything (the buyer
who is a real jerk - hates Cage) but they will order anything
you want and since it is all in the Peters catalogue it is
relatively easy to get the stuff within a 3-4 week period.
That is unless Peters has to print it up specially, then it
can take some time.
Joseph Patelson Music House
160 West 56th Street
New York, NY 10019
Phone# (212) 582 - 5840
FAX# (212)246 - 5633 (for you folks overseas)
Just let them know what you want and how you
want it sent (air mail, surface mail for overseas orders,
Within the US they usually send UPS) and give them a
credit card # and your name, address and phone. That's it.
You can Also try Frank's Music in NYC @ (212) 582 - 1999
or Carl Fischer @ (212) 777 - 0900
They will also do mail order.
Heck, you can even order from Peters directly, but you
won't get the 5% discount that you get from Patelson's
Unfortunately i know all this crap because i work part time
at Patelson's (gotta pay the rent!).
Cheers,
kevin parks
The Center for Computer at Brooklyn College
P.S. A question for Mr. Peter Risse: Where does that William Carlos Williams
quote come from? I'd love to know.
P.P.S. OH heck here's the address for Peters:
C.F. Peters Co.
373 Park Avenue South
New York, NY 10016
Phone # (212) 686-4147
Fax # (212) 689-9412
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #3
***************************
Date sent: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 23:45:35 -0600
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #4
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Wednesday, 11 January 1995 Volume 01 : Number 004
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 12:59:46 -0500
Subject: RE: David Revill's book
>The value of Kostelanetz's "Conversing with Cage"
>is that it brings together many interesting snipits
>of interviews that are otherwise difficult to find since they are
>published in journals. I LOVE the book, it is a great deal of fun.
>If your looking for an orderly, scholarly book your looking in the wrong plac
e.
>There isn't even an index. But i have gotten quite a lot out of that book an
d i
>think that it is sad that is going out of print. It is especially fun to rea
d
>in the bathroom or on the subway. And believe me i am the
>last one to run to Kostelanetz's defense (don't ask!).
I agree that as a non-scholar, Kostelanetz's books have helped me get a
hold of all the things I couldn't seem to grasp when I just read Cage's
materials. Again, he helped me put things into context and bring it all
back down to earth. It was nice to be able to read the question and
answers because a lot of people were asking the very questions I wanted to
ask Cage and the answers he gave were in plain English.
Speaking of which, does anyone know of a way that you can get the interview
part of _I-VI_ without having to buy the big expensive book of mesostics
that it is all about? Even a soft copy would be nice.
Just curious.
- --
I'd like to die peacefully in my !
sleep like my grandfather, ! Peter Risser
not screaming in terror ! pnr@po.cwru.edu
like his passengers. !
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 14:38:08 600
Subject: Silence Web Page
I've set up a web page for this list at
"http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/Cage/".
It currently contains links to the three existing silence digests,
plus a pseudo-digest I put together from the messages that preceded
the creation of the digest.
I'd like to include any appropriate and legally postable text,
images, etc, that we might get ahold of, as well as any suggestions
for how it might be improved.
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 16:17:18 -0500
Subject: Conversations with Cage
Someone mentioned earlier that this book was out of print.
I have a copy i received for Christmas (soft back, though) and it's dated
1994 from Limelight Editions. (Fourth Limelight Edition April 1994).
My mom's not very tricky, so I imagine it can't be too hard to find.
- --
I'd like to die peacefully in my !
sleep like my grandfather, ! Peter Risser
not screaming in terror ! pnr@po.cwru.edu
like his passengers. !
------------------------------
From: saxmania@rci.ripco.com (Sax Therapy)
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 19:54:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Silence Web Page
Sometime in the mid 70's Cage was in attendance at a performance of one
of his works at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. After the
concert there was a reception and I got to speak with Cage and ask him
a few questions. I've got this short interview on cassette somewhere in
my disorganized tape archives. As soon as I locate it, I would like to
transcribe it and post it to this list. Or, if someone would be interested
in volunteering to do the transcribing, I would send them a copy of the
tape.
- --
_ \/ _ _ _ \ / s a u l s m a i z y s
S /=\/\ | |-| e R /-\ P | vox[312]907.8229 fax[312]907.8521
+ + m a k i n g s a x e s w e l l a d j u s t e d s i n c e 1 9 7 5 + +
web page http://ripco.com:8080/~saxmania/A.html
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 10:47:53 +0800
Subject: Silence Web Page
>
>I've set up a web page for this list at
>"http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/Cage/".
>
>It currently contains links to the three existing silence digests,
>plus a pseudo-digest I put together from the messages that preceded
>the creation of the digest.
>
Joe,
My two attempts to read the most recent digest both threw my Macintosh (runnin
g
NCSA Mosaic) into a hung state which required a fresh boot; forgive me if I
keep my distance until things are a bit more robust!
Steve
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 23:23:03 600
Subject: Re: Silence Web Page
smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar) writes:
> My two attempts to read the most recent digest both threw my Macintosh (runn
ing
> NCSA Mosaic) into a hung state which required a fresh boot; forgive me if I
> keep my distance until things are a bit more robust!
Please let me know if you find out what caused this. It contains very
simple HTML (only TITLE, HEAD, BODY, and PRE elements). It works OK
under Windows Netscape.
Anyone else having problems/success with it? Let me know (I've
directed responses to this post to go to me rather than the list to
reduce the bandwidth a flurry of these to the list might cause).
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: saxmania@rci.ripco.com (Sax Therapy)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 00:15:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Silence Web Page
>
> smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar) writes:
>
> > My two attempts to read the most recent digest both threw my Macintosh (ru
nning
> > NCSA Mosaic) into a hung state which required a fresh boot; forgive me if
I
> > keep my distance until things are a bit more robust!
>
I'm curious, what version of Mosaic are you running and do you have a slip
connection to the Internet? I tried using Mosaic with TIA and found it very
slow. MacWeb was a little better but if you can do without the graphics Lynx
is the quickest way around.
- --
_ \/ _ _ _ \ / s a u l s m a i z y s
S /=\/\ | |-| e R /-\ P | vox[312]907.8229 fax[312]907.8521
+ + m a k i n g s a x e s w e l l a d j u s t e d s i n c e 1 9 7 5 + +
web page http://ripco.com:8080/~saxmania/A.html
------------------------------
From: "Jerry L Young" <jerry_l_young@riscgate.sps.mot.com>
Date: 3 Jan 1995 10:59:33 U
Subject: Re: David Revill's book
Reply to: RE>>David Revill's book
Stephen W. Smoliar asks,
>By the way, my copy of "Etudes Australes" has a rather extensive list of
>Cage's compositions on the back cover. This list begins "for details see
>our Contemporary Music Catalogue." Has anyone seen this? Is Peters keeping
>it up to date?
If we are talking about the same thing, I have a couple of these from the
'70s and maybe the early '80s. I don't know if they have kept this up to
date. If I remember rightly, the format changed over the years from more of a
paperback bound book (along the lines of that 1962 monograph/catalog devoted
to Cage with interviews, commentary, and list of publications) to a less
expensively produced (saddle-stitched) but much larger affair. Several
(Most?) of the folks published by Peters write something about their music
along with the catalog entries for the works published by Peters. Not sure
where mine are, but I'll try to dig them out.
Jerry
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:22:23 +0800
Subject: Silence Web Page
>>
>> smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar) writes:
>>
>> > My two attempts to read the most recent digest both threw my Macintosh
>> > (running
>> > NCSA Mosaic) into a hung state which required a fresh boot; forgive me i
f
>> > I
>> > keep my distance until things are a bit more robust!
>>
>I'm curious, what version of Mosaic are you running and do you have a slip
>connection to the Internet?
For the record, I am running NCSAMosaic200A17.68k. I do not need a SLIP
connection to the Internet because I have my own TCP connection with my
own IP number. This version has been pretty robust (until now).
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet: smoliar@iss.nus.sg
FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: Tom Marazita <toad@eci1.ucsb.edu>
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 09:53:47 PST
Subject: Re: Cage Brutally Taunted on MST3k! Thrice!!!
rons@midway.uchicago whines:
> I can't remember any of the names of these movies, except 1)
> might be called "Mummy From Mars/Space". I will be on the
> lookout for any more of this mocking.
I too pay close attention to the Cage references on this show.
It appears to me that someone involved with the writing is a
pretty big fan of Cage, and of 20th Century composition in
general. Let's just hope it's not "TV's Frank" though; he's
leaving the show in the very near future (or so I've read over on
alt.tv.mst3k).
Tom
===========================================================================
Tom Marazita
| Center for Computational Sciences and Engineering
| 3107 Engineering 1
postmaster@ucsb.edu
| University of California
Tel: 805 893-3221
| Santa Barbara, CA 93106
===========================================================================
------------------------------
From: "Josh Ronsen" <yoshi@arion.com>
Date: 5 Jan 1995 12:58:40 -0600
Subject: postpost
Why did Cage repeatedly refer to Sylvia Fort as "the black dancer Sylvia
Fort"? Maragret Len Teng echoes this discription in the notes to her
"Daughters of the Lonesome Isle" CD. Is there a particular reason why Sylvia
Fort is described as a "black" dancer? This reference always intrigues/annoys
me whenever I read it.
And another question, not directly related to the above: why does composer
and musician Anthony Braxton call Cage a "racist" in G. Locke's FORCES IN
MOTION (first pg of Ch 4, I think). Braxton does not elaborate, but he must
have some reason for this statement, especially in light of Braxton's rather
large appreciation of Cage's music.
Any thought on either of these?
Josh
yoshi@arion.com
------------------------------
From: grossmj@spot.Colorado.EDU
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 13:18:11 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Cage Brutally Taunted on MST3k! Thrice!!!
The one about the jazz piano player is called "Tormented", starring Richard
Carlson.
But all in all, I've noticed more Frank Zappa references in MST3K.
Joe G.
------------------------------
From: grossmj@spot.Colorado.EDU
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 13:27:07 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: postpost
I'm a little hazy about this, but I understand there was some kind of dis-
agreement between Cage and Anthony Davis at a conference at Telluride a few
years back, the subject involving Davis' opera "X" about Malcolm X. And
Davis has played with Braxton. Again, I don't know details, maybe someone
else does?
Joe G.
------------------------------
From: James Pritchett <Jamesp@pgi.petersons.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 95 16:31:00 EST
Subject: RE: postpost
>Why did Cage repeatedly refer to Sylvia Fort as "the black dancer Sylvia
>Fort"? Maragret Len Teng echoes this discription in the notes to her
>"Daughters of the Lonesome Isle" CD. Is there a particular reason why
Sylvia
>Fort is described as a "black" dancer? This reference always
intrigues/annoys
>me whenever I read it.
Syvilla (not Sylvia) Fort's importance in the context of Cage's work is as
the dancer for whom the first prepared piano piece was written --
"Bacchanale". Her dance supposedly had African overtones, which is in part
why Cage wanted to write a percussion piece for its accompaniment. Not
having the space for a percussion ensemble, he invented the prepared piano
as a one-man percussion orchestra. I suppose that he always referred to her
as a "black dancer" because, in the context of the story, it seems relevant.
Also, I would guess that in the late 1930s a black modern dancer in Spokane
would be a rarity (I could be wrong on that, though). I don't remember how
I referred to her in my book, but I remember trying to steer clear of the
"black dancer" formulation.
James Pritchett
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 17:37:18 600
Subject: RE: postpost
James Pritchett <Jamesp@pgi.petersons.com> writes:
> Also, I would guess that in the late 1930s a black modern dancer in Spokane
> would be a rarity (I could be wrong on that, though). I don't remember how
> I referred to her in my book, but I remember trying to steer clear of the
> "black dancer" formulation.
Here's the reference from James's book:
"The story, recounted by him in "How the Piano Came to Be Prepared".
begins in 1940 with the request by Syvilla Fort, a dancer at the
Cornish School for music to accompany her dance _Bacchanale_. The
piece needed to reflect the African theme of the dance, and hence
Cage wished to use percussion instruments."
He points out in notes some problems with the story, but says it's
probably close to accurate. (Did I summarize that OK?)
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: James Pritchett <Jamesp@pgi.petersons.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 95 14:32:00 EST
Subject: RE: postpost
Joe asks:
> (Did I summarize that OK?)
Yup. Thanks for filling in the details. The problems with Cage's story
about Bacchanale all relate to the dating of the piece -- did he write it in
1938 or 1940? Like I say in the book, it really doesn't matter very much,
and I don't think we'll ever know for sure.
James
------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 09:14:33 -0500
Subject: Re: postpost
>Why did Cage repeatedly refer to Sylvia Fort as "the black dancer Sylvia
>Fort"? Maragret Len Teng echoes this discription in the notes to her
>"Daughters of the Lonesome Isle" CD. Is there a particular reason why Sylvia
>Fort is described as a "black" dancer? This reference always intrigues/annoys
>me whenever I read it.
Historically, it is important that she was black, because she helped break
down color barriers being one of the first black dancers, etc.
But to continually refer to her as the "black dancer Sylvia Fort" outside
of any historical context eventually makes no more sense than to
continually refer to Cage as the "gay composer John Cage". I imagine it's
one of those things that a person doesn't think about until someone points
it out to them. I have no doubt that Cage would agree that the label was
unnecessary.
- --
I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep !
like my grandfather, ! Peter Risser
not screaming in terror ! pnr@po.cwru.edu
like his passengers. !
------------------------------
From: "Windsor Viney" <wviney@acs.ucalgary.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 95 9:20:07 MST
Subject: Ms. Fort's name
It seems to me that Ms. Fort's name was not "Sylvia," but
something like "Syvilla." Sorry to be so vague, but it's been
many years since I read the actual remarks in Cage's writings
(which I no longer have to hand).
Can anyone out there straighten me out on this point -- it seems
to me a good policy to check what one *thinkone remembers from
time to time, memory being what it is (though Cage's, as I recall
<g>, was prodigious).
Windsor Viney
wviney@acs.ucalgary.com
------------------------------
From: "Windsor Viney" <wviney@acs.ucalgary.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 95 9:38:28 MST
Subject: Re: Ms. Fort's name
Regarding my previous message: I gave a wrong e-mail address under
my name (almost worse than misspelling one's own name -- I've
done *that* from time to time, too). Should be
wviney@acs.ucalgary.ca
Sorry for the wasted bandwidth.
Windsor Viney
------------------------------
From: Olivia_MATTIS@umail.umd.edu (om4)
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 95 11:32 EST
Subject: Lecture on Nothing
Does anybody know if the "Lecture on Nothing" was delivered to the Eighth
Street Artists Club in New York exactly as it appears in _Silence_? The
blurb given above the text in _Silence_ leaves some ambiguity about this.
I'm working right now on music and Abstract Expressionism, and this factoid
is very important to me.
Olivia Mattis
University of Maryland at College Park
------------------------------
From: James Pritchett <Jamesp@pgi.petersons.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 95 12:11:00 EST
Subject: RE: Lecture on Nothing
> Does anybody know if the "Lecture on Nothing" was delivered to the Eighth
> Street Artists Club in New York exactly as it appears in _Silence_? The
> blurb given above the text in _Silence_ leaves some ambiguity about this.
> I'm working right now on music and Abstract Expressionism, and this
factoid
> is very important to me.
> Olivia Mattis
> University of Maryland at College Park
I don't know for certain, but I assume so. The papers of the Artist's Club
secretary (whose name escapes me at the moment) are in an archive right
there in DC. I may have the information around somewhere, but in any event
I got it from the footnotes in one of the abstract expressionist studies
floating around out there. I've wanted to check those papers out to get
information about Cage's Indian sand-painting lecture, the exact dates of
the Lectures on Nothing and Something, etc. If you check it out, let me
know!
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
OR
jamesp@pgi.petersons.com
------------------------------
From: David W Patterson <dwp1@columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 95 9:14:06 EST
Subject: RE: Lecture on Nothing
You might also check with Elizabeth Swaim, Special Collections
Librarian at Olin Library, Wesleyan University, where the "other" Cage
Archive is. I can't recall offhand if they have materials
specifically on the Lecture on Nothing, but that's where a good deal
of Cage's writing-related materials are, including some files marked
"Kostelanetz," which I assume means he used those files in assembling
his anthologies. (Perhaps there are Ur-sources there?)
David Patterson
Columbia University
dwp1@columbia.edu
------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 19:31:25 -0500
Subject: off the subject
I know this is sort of off the subject, so please Email your responses as
oppsoed to posting them, but does anyone out there know anything about
Digital Editing studios? Specifically, good software/hardware that can be
run on a simple IBM setup?
I'm very curious.
Thanks.
- --
I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep !
like my grandfather, ! Peter Risser
not screaming in terror ! pnr@po.cwru.edu
like his passengers. !
------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 19:32:15 -0500
Subject: random program
I have the random program for command line DOS. If you want me to mail you
a copy, drop me a line. (EMail, please)
- --
I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep !
like my grandfather, ! Peter Risser
not screaming in terror ! pnr@po.cwru.edu
like his passengers. !
------------------------------
From: "E.R.M. (Editions de la Rue Margot)" <numusic@interaccess.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 23:41:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: random program
On Wed, 11 Jan 1995, Peter N. Risser wrote:
>
> I have the random program for command line DOS. If you want me to mail you
> a copy, drop me a line. (EMail, please)
Please Peter, I would like a copy of the random program...
Paul Harvey
numusic@interaccess.com
Thanks...
>
>
> --
> I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep !
> like my grandfather, ! Peter Risse
r
> not screaming in terror ! pnr@po.cwru.ed
u
> like his passengers. !
>
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #4
***************************
Date sent: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 06:08:57 -0600
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #5
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Monday, 16 January 1995 Volume 01 : Number 005
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 15:51:31 EST
Subject: Cage mss. at NYPL
I'm happy to post this item.
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music
Librarian
Graduate Center
Music Division
City University of New York
The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
kosovsky@nyplgate.nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions----
---
======================================================================
News Release:
THE MUSIC MANUSCRIPTS OF JOHN CAGE, A MAJOR LEGACY OF 20TH-
CENTURY CULTURE, GO TO THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY FOR THE
PERFORMING ARTS.
New York, New York -- January 13, 1995 -- New York Public
Library President Paul LeClerc announced today the acquisition
of the John Cage Music Manuscript Collection, which will be
housed permanently in the Music Division of the New York Public
Library for the Performing Arts at Lincoln Center. "Cage was
one of the premiere American artists of this century, and his
26,000 pages of manuscripts will reside alongside the works of
many other influential contemporary composers, including
William Schuman, Otto Luening, Vincent Perischetti, and Carlos
Chavez, all of whose manuscripts are important components of
the Library's collections," said Dr. LeClerc.
At today's press conference, Dr. LeClerc was joined by Merce
Cunningham, the Artistic Director of the Merce Cunningham Dance
Foundation and the most important associate of the late John
Cage, and Robert Marx, Executive Director of The New York
Public Library for the Performing Arts. Present were many
associates of John Cage, including Laura Kuhn, Executive
Director of the John Cage Trust; Don Gillespie, Vice President
of C. F. Peters Corporation, the longtime publishers of Cage's
music; and David Vaughan, the Cunningham Dance Foundation
archivist.
Speaking of the importance of the acquisition by The New York
Public Library for the Performing Arts, Mr. Cunningham said,
"The several times John Cage spoke of his desire concerning his
music manuscripts, it was always that they be kept together and
made accessible to whoever might be interested; that they be
left open, as he was, to people having the opportunity to see
and experience them. They show his spirit, the continuous
adventure of his life."
John Cage was born in Los Angeles in 1912, and his interest in
music was apparent an early age. After college and travels in
Europe, where he augmented his studies in music with
architecture and modern painting, Cage returned to Los Angeles
to make his life as a composer. His earliest compositions date
from the early 1930s when he was studying with Henry Cowell and
Arnold Schoenberg. In 1938 Cage met Merce Cunnningham at the
Cornish School near Seattle where he had been accompanying
dance classes. In 1943, at the age of 31, he moved to New York
where he worked and lived for nearly five decades, until his
death in 1992.
Long after teaching Cage, Schoenberg confided to a friend that
his former student was "an inventor of genius." Through his
inventiveness Cage sought to expand existing modes of musical
expression. One of his most well-known inventions is the
prepared piano, in which various materials are carefully
positioned between the strings of a piano. When played, the
sound of a prepared piano can offer striking effects of tone
and timbre not available on an ordinary piano. The first
composition in which Cage used a prepared piano was his
Bacchanale (1940), for which he desired an extra sound
dimension without using percussion. Many of the manuscripts in
the acquisition illustrate Cage's diligence in carefully
determining the placement of particular objects inside a piano.
Cage experimented with electronic sounds long before the advent
of magnetic tape. Imaginary Landscape, no. 1 (1939) used two
variable-speed turntables along with a piano and cymbal. With
the general availability of tape recording in the 1950s Cage
continued to explore new possibilities of sound. His Williams
Mix (1952) contains precise and detailed graphic instructions
for splicing together over 600 different sounds in order to
create a recording of slightly over four minutes. Cage once
wrote "My favorite music is the music I haven't yet heard. I
don't hear the music I write. I write, in order to hear the
music I havent yet heard. That's my tendency -- to be
interested most in what I haven't yet done."
In the 1940s, Cage became interested in Zen Buddhism. One idea
that was a continual source of inspiration to him was the
notion of the composer withholding his personal choices in the
realization of a musical composition. In this way the
circumstances and environment of a particular performance would
create the resulting work. Cage's 4'33" (1952) represents a
synthesis and culmination of these ideas. Undoubtedly his most
famous work, 4'33" consists of instructions for a performer to
sit quietly for four minutes and thirty-three seconds. The
silence forces performer and audience to become aware of
ambient sound. "I have felt and hoped to have led other people
to feel that the sounds of their environment constitute a music
which is more interesting than the music which they would hear
if they went into a concert hall."
Many of the manuscripts for individual works are accompanied by
earlier drafts, sketches, and preliminary compositional notes.
Several works remain unpublished, and other works are
incomplete and unfinished. Musicologists study and value this
kind of archival material for the assistance it offers in
gaining a thorough understanding of a composer's unique
compositional procedures and individual style. At the
Performing Arts Library the John Cage Music Manuscripts will be
housed in the Music Division, under the supervision of its
chief, Jean Bowen.
Numerous compositions by Cage reveal his fascination with using
music in a theatrical context. As early as 1939 he wrote
incidental music to a production of Cocteau's The Wedding on
the Eiffel Tower. The collection includes this work which has
never been published. His famed partnership with Merce
Cunningham created a legacy of musical compositions for the
dance. Cage also composed for other dancers and choreographers
such as Valerie Bettis, Bonnie Bird, Jean Erdman, Syvilla Fort,
Hanya Holm, Louise Lippold, Merle Marsicano, Pearl Primus, and
Wilson Williams. Cage wrote two film scores, both of which
concern visual artists. Music for Marcel Duchamp was composed
for the sequence designed by Duchamp that formed a part of
Dreams That Money Can Buy (1947), and Works of Calder (1950)
was written for the documentary film of the same name
concerning sculptor Alexander Calder.
Cage was at the forefront of what came to be called performance
art with his Black Mountain Piece (1952), which uses music,
theatre, dance, and multimedia. Water Walk (1959) uses a
mechanical fish, a duck call, a bathtub, a soda siphon, and ice
cubes crushed in a blender among other material, and was first
performed on an Italian television quiz show. A 1966
performance in Greenwich Village of his Theater Piece (1960)
was interrupted by the police when the audience was sent out of
the theater to scavenge for streetside garbage to be used in
the work's realization.
Robert Marx said, "Cage was one of the original creative forces
in American music of this century. The archive includes most
of John Cage's musical compositions, as well as his own
detailed notes on how these works should be performed.
Researches will find this collection to be a prime source for
the ways in which experimental performances have been realized
in our own country and abroad. We're excited that soon the
catalog of the collection will be available on-line, and that
eventually the manuscripts themselves will be digitized and
electronically accessible to the world.
[end]
------------------------------
From: "FURR" <E4152019@apollo.montclair.edu>
Date: 14 Jan 95 01:50:00 EST
Subject: Tribute to John Cage (a poem)
Time
Random
musIc
numBers
soUnd
quesTions
Experience
noThing
cOmposes
Journey
thrOugh
pHilosophy
chaNce
Change
imAgination
nonGuidance
silencE
A Poem by Craig Cosentino
------------------------------
From: christopher l shultis <cshultis@unm.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 00:39:18 -0700 (MST)
Subject: David Revill's Cage bio
Let's not be so hard on David Revill! I can understand Mr. Pritchett's
dismay over the lack of citations (particularly in regards his own
excellent research); on the other hand, I find it a useful biography for
the layperson. While I doubt that scholars will find it useful, it does
give a general overview of Cage's life unavailable in any other single
source. Besides it (the book) clearly had no intention of being scholarly
to begin with. It is also certainly preferable to the kind of
journalistic biographies Joan Peyser writes (although I think it somewhat
fits within a similar category). Finally, Revill's attention to Norman O.
Brown is especially notable since I consider Brown to be Cage's most
perceptive critic. His (Brown's) lecture "John Cage", published in the
collection "John Cage at 75" (Bucknell) heavily influences Revill's work.
And the important distinction made there (re: Nietzsche's
Apollonian-Dionysian
aesthetic axis) has been all but ignored by the so-called Cage scholarly
community (my 1993 dissertation "Silencing the Sounded Self: John Cage
and the Experimental Tradition in Twentieth-Century Poetry and Music"
focuses contextually on such issues). Reading Brown's "Love's Body" in
parallel with the oft-cited (by Cage) "Neti-Neti" by L.C. Beckett is
very, very revealing, I think. In fact, can anyone out there help me find
an original copy of the latter to replace my extremely worn-out photocopy
of this long out of print text?
Chris Shultis
cshultis@unm.edu
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 03:58:41 600
Subject: Re: David Revill's Cage bio
christopher l shultis <cshultis@unm.edu> writes:
> And the important distinction made there (re: Nietzsche's
> Apollonian-Dionysian aesthetic axis) has been all but ignored
> by the so-called Cage scholarly
> community (my 1993 dissertation "Silencing the Sounded Self: John Cage
> and the Experimental Tradition in Twentieth-Century Poetry and Music"
> focuses contextually on such issues).
Is the text of your dissertation available?
> Reading Brown's "Love's Body" in
> parallel with the oft-cited (by Cage) "Neti-Neti" by L.C. Beckett is
> very, very revealing, I think. In fact, can anyone out there help me find
> an original copy of the latter to replace my extremely worn-out photocopy
> of this long out of print text?
Try a university library (though I would guess you already have). The
University of Texas online directory lists it as:
Neti, neti (not this, not that). / Beckett, Lucile C / Marazion, Corn#
1959
B 828 B421 Humanities Research Center USE IN LIBRARY ONLY
AUTHOR: Beckett, Lucile C
TITLE: Neti, neti (not this, not that).
PUBLISHED: (Marazion, Cornwall) Ark Press; London, (distributed by J.M.
Watkins, 1955)
DESCRIPTION: 112 p. 20 cm.
NOTES: Includes bibliographies. Bibliographical footnotes.
SUBJECTS: Mysticism
OCLC NUMBER: 3041047
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@lulu.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 95 08:50:59 -0800
Subject: Revill's book (was: David Revill's Cage Bio)
Chris Schultis writes:
> Let's not be so hard on David Revill! I can understand Mr. Pritchett's
> dismay over the lack of citations (particularly in regards his own
> excellent research); on the other hand, I find it a useful biography for
> the layperson. While I doubt that scholars will find it useful, it does
> give a general overview of Cage's life unavailable in any other single
> source.
There are more lapses that the lack of citations of scholars; there are
also inaccuracies of factual data (rectified by Richard Kostalanetz in
his review for _Notes_) and -- most egregious, to my mind -- wholesale
quotations from Cage's own writings with no citations. So yes, it
is easy to be hard on Revill -- it would not have taken him much longer
to fix these problems.
> Besides it (the book) clearly had no intention of being scholarly
> to begin with.
Depends on how you define "scholarly." It has a bibliography and (some)
notes, which is more than many a popular biography has.
> Finally, Revill's attention to Norman O.
> Brown is especially notable since I consider Brown to be Cage's most
> perceptive critic. His (Brown's) lecture "John Cage", published in the
> collection "John Cage at 75" (Bucknell) heavily influences Revill's work.
Eastman doesn't have that collection (which I had looked at when I was
studying at Peabody) but I am in the process of getting it from Univ. Roch.
I wanted to look at a Pritchett article there but will have to read the Brown
as well.
> And the important distinction made there (re: Nietzsche's
> Apollonian-Dionysian
> aesthetic axis) has been all but ignored by the so-called Cage scholarly
> community ...
Why "so-called"? I am dismayed that so much attention has been
lavished on Cage's ideas often to the exclusion of his music, writing, and
art -- and continues to be -- but I rarely think the scholarship itself is
specious. Please elaborate.
> (my 1993 dissertation "Silencing the Sounded Self: John Cage
> and the Experimental Tradition in Twentieth-Century Poetry and Music"
> focuses contextually on such issues).
Have any parts of your dissertation been published in journals? Or read
at a conference? If the former, I would love to know the journals so I
could read some of your work. If the latter, would you be willing to
share copies with me?
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
From: christopher l shultis <cshultis@unm.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 23:08:54 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: my remark about the "so-called Cage scholarly community"
On Sat, 14 Jan 1995, Robert Haskins wrote:
> Why "so-called"? I am dismayed that so much attention has been
> lavished on Cage's ideas often to the exclusion of his music, writing, and
> art -- and continues to be -- but I rarely think the scholarship itself is
> specious. Please elaborate.
> I like the scholarship too for the most part. My emphasis should have more
clearly addressed "community". When I submitted my dissertation proposal
there were only three Ph.D dissertations on Cage recorded (Pritchett, Snyder
and Campana). I would expect a community to have more members than that!
I am fully aware that there are many others out there working on
Cage projects but there is very little published evidence of a
community if that clarifies my meaning. Furthermore there is really little
published scholarly analysis of Cage's ideas either if you think about it.
Most of what has passed for that kind of analysis is journalistic and, as such
,
not very substantive. In other words, there's alot of work to do in all
areas including Cage's ideas.
I also think that separating Cage's work into the various categories you
suggest above is somewhat problematic even though Cage himself indicated
that such separations were very real. For example, I find that literary
analysis is often a far more effective way of approaching many of Cage's
musical compositions and vice versa. Since Cage often worked in both
mediums, how does the scholar approach Cage without expertise in both
musical and literary analytical methods? And what about the visual art
that occupied so much of Cage's time toward the end of his life? It seems
to me that Cage's work requires an interdisciplinary methodology that is
discouraged all too often by specialized disciplines. Anyone as
interested in the ideas of Fuller as Cage was would certainly be apt to
prefer a synergetic (the sum is greater than the total of its parts)
approach. I find it very, very difficult consequently to separate Cage's
music from the ideas that underlie it. But then again, if there really is
a Cage scholarly community out there, let's hear how some of you are
approaching such issues.
> > (my 1993 dissertation "Silencing the Sounded Self: John
Cage
> > and the Experimental Tradition in Twentieth-Century Poetry and Music"
> > focuses contextually on such issues).
>
> Have any parts of your dissertation been published in journals? Or read
> at a conference? If the former, I would love to know the journals so I
> could read some of your work. If the latter, would you be willing to
> share copies with me?
>
I just missed the AMS deadline so I guess I won't be submitting anything
for the New York conference. I submitted an article to the Musical
Quarterly well over a year ago; it continues to languish there and if I
don't hear soon I may pull it and submit the thing elsewhere. I did read a
paper at the Rocky Mountain American Studies Conference on Cage and Thoreau
a few years back. I'm also sending my revised dissertation to various
publishers. I read a few papers during my Fulbright last year and am giving
a formal lecture on Cage as part of a lecture series at the University of
Maryland at College Park this coming April. So as you can see, I've
not published anything either--but I'm trying! Give me your Eastman address
and I'll send a few things off to you.
Chris Shultis
University of New Mexico
>
>
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@lulu.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 95 07:29:45 -0800
Subject: RE: My remark about the "so-called Cage scholarly community"
Chris Shultis wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jan 1995, Robert Haskins wrote:
>
> > Why "so-called"? I am dismayed that so much attention has been
> > lavished on Cage's ideas often to the exclusion of his music, writing, and
> > art -- and continues to be -- but I rarely think the scholarship itself is
> > specious. Please elaborate.
>
> I like the scholarship too for the most part. My emphasis should have more
> clearly addressed "community". When I submitted my dissertation proposal
> there were only three Ph.D dissertations on Cage recorded (Pritchett, Snyder
> and Campana). I would expect a community to have more members than that!
> I am fully aware that there are many others out there working on
> Cage projects but there is very little published evidence of a
> community if that clarifies my meaning. Furthermore there is really little
> published scholarly analysis of Cage's ideas either if you think about it.
> Most of what has passed for that kind of analysis is journalistic and, as su
ch,
> not very substantive. In other words, there's a lot of work to do in all
> areas including Cage's ideas.
The lack of publication doesn't necessarily indicate a lack of interest but a
rather a continuing "uneasiness" about Cage among the elder statespeople
in the musicological community. Lately, _Perspectives of New Music_
has been publishing quite a bit, and there's been some stuff in _Musical
Quarterly_ , so I would LIKE to think the tide is changing. In English,
the 70th and 75th birthday collections, the Kostalanetz-edited _Writings
about Cage,_ and the Perloff/Junkerman-edited _John Cage: Composed
in America_ all seem to contain thoughtful (i.e., not journalistic) articles.
And certainly, among the hundreds (thousands?) of interviews, there are
some that I think are really more than journalistic. (Off the top of my
head, the Stuart Saunders Smith in _Percussive Notes,_ which was reprinted
in _Writings about Cage_ -- okay, okay, so I transcribed it, but that doesn't
bias me! :-) )I don't know the European situation as well but I would
imagine there's a lot in German. So there are things beginning to appear
and I think this will continue.
> I also think that separating Cage's work into the various categories you
> suggest above is somewhat problematic even though Cage himself indicated
> that such separations were very real. For example, I find that literary
> analysis is often a far more effective way of approaching many of Cage's
> musical compositions and vice versa. Since Cage often worked in both
> mediums, how does the scholar approach Cage without expertise in both
> musical and literary analytical methods? And what about the visual art
> that occupied so much of Cage's time toward the end of his life? It seems
> to me that Cage's work requires an interdisciplinary methodology that is
> discouraged all too often by specialized disciplines.
I have no doubt that an interdisciplinary approach would suit Cage
admirably (why not include, for example, dance history in that
mixture?) But as soon as we imagine we know exactly _how_ Cage
scholarship should best be done, we silence voices in the dialogue, and
I find that silencing more problematic than any ad-hoc division of
categories I suggested above. Nevertheless, the so-called New Musicology
of Lawrence Kramer and Carolyn Abbate favor strongly interdisciplinary
approaches in their work, but neither has dealt with any music past Richard
Strauss's _Elektra._ Nevertheless, their work has made the climate more
favorable for interdiscplinary work on Cage.
> But then again, if there really is
> a Cage scholarly community out there, let's hear how some of you are
> approaching such issues.
My general feeling (and I don't strictly count myself in the "Cage scholarly
community" since my mastery of the literature isn't where it should be) is
that we need to gain a stronger understanding of Cage's compositional
methods (the beginnings of which can be found in Pritchett, especially);
we need literary analysis of Cage's poetry; we need interdiscplinary
studies dealing with Cage and dance; and we need to be more willing to
discuss pitch in Cage's music. And that, to me, is the tip of the iceberg.
> I just missed the AMS deadline so I guess I won't be submitting anything
> for the New York conference. I submitted an article to the Musical
> Quarterly well over a year ago; it continues to languish there and if I
> don't hear soon I may pull it and submit the thing elsewhere.
I bet either _Perspectives_ or _repercussions_ would publish it in a flash.
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@lulu.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 95 07:37:15 -0800
Subject: The rest of my posting
For reasons that don't make any sense to me, some of my posting
seems to have been missing from its appearance on Silence.
Here it is again (and if the rest of you got it, my apologies
for cluttering your mailbox):
> But then again, if there really is
> a Cage scholarly community out there, let's hear how some of you are
> approaching such issues.
My general feeling (and I don't strictly count myself in the "Cage scholarly
community" since my mastery of the literature isn't where it should be) is
that we need to gain a stronger understanding of Cage's compositional
methods (the beginnings of which can be found in Pritchett, especially);
we need literary analysis of Cage's poetry; we need interdiscplinary
studies dealing with Cage and dance; and we need to be more willing to
discuss pitch in Cage's music. And that, to me, is the tip of the iceberg.
> I just missed the AMS deadline so I guess I won't be submitting anything
> for the New York conference. I submitted an article to the Musical
> Quarterly well over a year ago; it continues to languish there and if I
> don't hear soon I may pull it and submit the thing elsewhere.
I bet either _Perspectives_ or _repercussions_ would publish it in a flash.
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
From: christopher l shultis <cshultis@unm.edu>
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 22:01:05 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [none]
lists
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 23:27:23 600
Subject: New Cage Recordings: Real and Advertised
I'm listening with pleasure now to "In a Landscape", Stephen Drury's
new recording of John Cage's work for various keyboards. At first
listen, I like it a lot -- it seems somehow warmer than other
recordings I'd heard of the same pieces elsewhere.
The one piece that's completely new to me in "Souvenir", a piece for
organ in 1983. Somehow it feels to me like it was composed much
earlier -- perhaps it's what sounds like modular repetitions. I don't
know much about this work (Pritchett doesn't mention it in his
1969-1992 section, nor do the other references I have at hand). Does
anyone know more about this?
Drury's liner notes, BTW, also reference Pritchett in referring to
the problems with the "Bacchanale" chronology.
I also got a grin out of the "Suite for Toy Piano". If memory serves,
my first big dose of Cage came when I was working at the Rutgers
University Kilmer Library AV desk and stumbled across this piece on
the old CBS recording (Joshua Pierce?). I decided that that was a
very cool thing to have composed and proceded to work my way throught
the rest of his recordings that the rather well stocked library had.
The latest issue of Option has droolworthy ads for new Mode
recordings of the Europeras 3 & 4 and his music for orchestra. Does
anyone know when they will be in the stores?
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 23:16:38 600
Subject: Re: Cage mss. at NYPL
Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu> posts:
> News Release:
>
> THE MUSIC MANUSCRIPTS OF JOHN CAGE, A MAJOR LEGACY OF 20TH-
> CENTURY CULTURE, GO TO THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY FOR THE
> PERFORMING ARTS.
Thank you for posting this! After reading it, I'm chomping to take a
look at the collection.
Do you know what will be available online, and wheen, and in what
form? (I had a dream a few nights ago about a Rolywholyover Web Page
- -- maybe it's not so far from reality.)
Maybe I should take my next vacation holed up in the NYPL...
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 23:28:54 600
Subject: Sonatas and Interludes Recordings
I don't currently have a CD of the Sonatas and Interludes and would
like to get one, but there seem to be several out there. Any opinions
as to their relative quality?
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: kparks@its.brooklyn.cuny.edu (Kevin Parks --staff music)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 95 04:11:24 EST
Subject: Re: New Cage Recordings: Real and Advertised
The new mode thingy with 101 & co. will be in Tower after the 17th.
At least that's what the boobs at tower told me when i stopped into
the one one west 4th after work the other day. I can't wait. If 101
is anything like 103, we're in for a real treat.
Here, i can kill two birds with one stone:
on the Sonatas and interludes - i have the yuji takahashi recording on
Denon. I like it quite a lot. rhythmically sharp and the preparations
are carefully done. Of the ones that i have heard it is best. I have also
heard the joshua pierce and i don't like it much.
Cheers,
kevin parks
------------------------------
From: Ldaedalus@aol.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 06:50:34 -0500
Subject: Pritchett
Please forgive what must seem a very silly question: What is the Pritchett
book to which I often see references in this list?
Thanks,
Leo Daedalus
Ldaedalus@aol.com
------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 07:07:46 EST
Subject: The Pritchett book
Some info on the Pritchett book, courtesy of CATNYPL (NYPL's online catalog)
AUTHOR Pritchett, James.
TITLE The music of John Cage / James Pritchett.
IMPRINT Cambridge [England] ; New York : Cambridge University Press,
1993.
DESCRIPT xiii, 223 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.
SERIES Music in the twentieth century.
NOTE Includes bibliographical references and index.
SUBJECT Cage, John --Criticism and interpretation.
If you haven't yet noticed, the author is subscribed to this list.
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music
Librarian
Graduate Center
Music Division
City University of New York
The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
kosovsky@nyplgate.nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions----
---
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #5
***************************
Date sent: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 11:25:29 -0600
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #6
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Tuesday, 24 January 1995 Volume 01 : Number 006
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 07:16:52 EST
Subject: Re: Cage mss. at NYPL
Listowner Joseph Zitt <jzitt@humansystems.com> asks:
>Thank you for posting this! After reading it, I'm chomping to take a
>look at the collection.
>
>Do you know what will be available online, and wheen, and in what
>form? (I had a dream a few nights ago about a Rolywholyover Web Page
>-- maybe it's not so far from reality.)
>
>Maybe I should take my next vacation holed up in the NYPL...
Well, as it turns out, I'm the single person who's doing the cataloging,
though my work is checked by at least 2 additional catalogers. It'll still
be a while before the entire thing is completed (I'm going chronologically
and I'm only up to 1953 - having worked on it for little more than a month).
With certain exceptions, I believe the library is not keen on people using
the collection until all the processing is finished (I also have a bit of
physical processing to do as well).
I'm entering the preliminary cataloging records into RLIN, the database of
the Research Library Group, which is used by over 1,000 of the important
research libraries in the country. Most libraries who have access to RLIN
allow only librarians to use the database - though some places allow others
to access it (usually by an interface called Eudora, since RLIN searching can
be a little complex).
If it ever any reason, I wouldn't be adverse to posting some of my preliminary
cataloging, particularly of works that are not published.
It's pretty fascinating stuff, I admit!
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music
Librarian
Graduate Center
Music Division
City University of New York
The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
kosovsky@nyplgate.nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions----
---
------------------------------
From: James Pritchett <Jamesp@pgi.petersons.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 95 11:14:00 EST
Subject: Revill's book
On the matter of whether we're being too hard on David Revill, I have one
thing to say: he came perilously close to plagiarizing my dissertation
(there are whole paragraphs of his description of Music of Changes that are
minor rewrites of my work), which he cites nowhere. I heard from others
that he leaned heavily on their uncited work as well. Basically, I think
anyone who steals someone else's work is a thief, and that's that. How can
we be "too hard" on him?
James Pritchett
------------------------------
From: Jeremy Bernstein <SJB4590@OCVAXA.CC.OBERLIN.EDU>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 13:41:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sonatas and Interludes Recordings
I personally prefer the Etcetera label recording (I don't have it with me
so I can't tell you who the pianist is). The performances are energetic and
sensitive and wonderfullly musical. I didn't care so much for the Joshua
Pierce/WERGO recordings of the pieces -- I thought the performance was
rather detached.
Jeremy Bernstein
------------------------------
From: christopher l shultis <cshultis@unm.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 22:40:38 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Sonatas and Interludes Recordings
On Sun, 15 Jan 1995, Joseph Zitt wrote:
> I don't currently have a CD of the Sonatas and Interludes and would
> like to get one, but there seem to be several out there. Any opinions
> as to their relative quality?
The first CD I ever saw was Darryl Rosenberg's recording on VQR Digital (P.
O. Box 302, Needham, MA, 02192 USA). I bought it immediately and liked it
so I've nothing to compare it with. However, I will say that the sound
quality of the preparations is marvelous and the recording is superb. I
also think that Rosenberg really captures the "romantic" quality
of that era of Cage's compositions. Most pianists play the stuff way too
straight (listen to Cage himself play Amores if you don't believe me). I
highly recommend it.
------------------------------
From: christopher l shultis <cshultis@unm.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 23:03:24 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Revill's book
On Mon, 16 Jan 1995, James Pritchett wrote:
>
> On the matter of whether we're being too hard on David Revill, I have one
> thing to say: he came perilously close to plagiarizing my dissertation
> (there are whole paragraphs of his description of Music of Changes that are
> minor rewrites of my work), which he cites nowhere. I heard from others
> that he leaned heavily on their uncited work as well. Basically, I think
> anyone who steals someone else's work is a thief, and that's that. How can
> we be "too hard" on him?
>
> James Pritchett
>
I must admit that I rarely looked at the back of Revill's book as I read
it; the "notes" style was not sufficiently interesting to merit further
looks since, as you well know, there is very little in the book that
hasn't already been published elsewhere. I'll certainly take your word
for it regarding the uncited work and that is, of course, inexcusable.
The point I was making was two-fold: first, the book is the only thing
out there that gives a general introduction to both Cage's music and his
life and consequently until something better appears, I recommend it to the
lay audience with no interest in scholarly texts; second, his reference to
Norman O. Brown's criticism of Cage (while too simplistically using it to
claim that Cage was, borrowing from Nietzsche, an Apollonian artist) is
something that I had already been working on in far greater depth (don't
worry, he didn't steal from me!) I think that the lecture on Cage that
Brown gave at Wesleyan is a central text in Cage criticism. Who else has
ever mentioned the fascinating dialogue between Brown and Cage in print?
For me, that, if nothing else, makes it useful. What was it Cage said
about Kierkegaard watching that man sweat? Perhaps that applies here!
Chris Shultis
------------------------------
From: evab@ella.mills.edu (Eva Baumgartner)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 95 15:00:57 -0800
Subject: scholarly work/ Sonatas and Interludes
This is my first, timid attempt to post to this group.
I am drawn out of my "silence" to join in the current thread of
discussion regarding the scholarly work that exists on Cage's
work. I don't know how to include text quotes (I'm still
learning the in's and out's of posting stuff), so forgive me
if I am vague in my references to past postings.
My graduate thesis at Mills College (Oakland, CA)
last Spring, Sonatas and Interludes by John Cage: A Structural
Analysis, was a study of the rhythmic structure employed and
how this structure is manifested on a myriad of levels simultaniously.
Studying this work, as well as performing it, was such a joy in
the wonderful sense of continual discovery it provided... it
seems unending in it's intricacies. I must admit, though it
embarrasses me to do so, that when James Pritchett's book came
out and I finally got my hands on it two days before I submitted
my paper, my heart fell because there were all these numbers and
figures which I had arrived at by the sweat of my own brow...
and there they were in PUBLISHED print. However, my spirits were
revived when I realized that 1) This was an affirmation of my own
keen analytical skills, and 2) That my own work went into much
more depth and subtlety than a book with such a broad scope (ALL
the music of John Cage!) could possibly do. By the way, I must
state the obvious for the record... Pritchett's book is by far
the best book on Cage's music that has been published to date.
Anyway, I would love to get my analysis published, but
having never done it before I have no idea how to go about it.
I heard mention of three periodicals (I assume): Repercussions,
Percussive Notes, Perspectives in New Music. I am no where near
a decent library right now (house-sitting in Oregon countryside),
so I can't look them up. Anybody have the addresses?
My favorite recording is also Yuji Takashi, although I
think a couple came out recently I haven't heard yet.
Eva Baumgartner
evab@ella.mills.edu
------------------------------
From: "FURR" <E4152019@apollo.montclair.edu>
Date: 18 Jan 95 01:43:00 EST
Subject: RE: scholarly work/ Sonatas and Interludes
Percussive Notes, Perspectives in New Music. I am no where near
a decent library right now (house-sitting in Oregon countryside),
so I can't look them up. Anybody have the addresses?
Submissions to Perspectives and editorial correspondence:
Benjamin Boretz, Editor, PNM, Music Program Zero,
Box 175 Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, NY 12504
e-mail: boretz@levy.bard.edu.
Other Communications:
e-mail: pnm@u.washington.edu
Format should follow recent Chicago Manual of Style.
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@lulu.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 08:27:54 -0800
Subject: _repercussions_ address
The address for submissions to _repercussions_ is:
Editors, _repercussions_
107 Morrison Hall
Universityof Caliofornia, Berkeley 94720
For those who may not be familiar with the journal, this statement
will be helpful :
_repercussions_ invites submissions on any aspect of music,
culture, and/or crtiicism xx critical theory. There are no
set formats for contributions: we welcome articles with
personal, hortatory, or polemic perspectives, as well as those
unconventional instructure or voice. Proposals for interviews,
bulletins, or rountables will be considered by the editors:
please send a short description to the address above.
Contirubotrs should submit twocopies of their manuscript.
Submissions are reviewed anonymously, so authors areasked
not to include their names on each page. All maniuscripts
must be double-spaced, including footnotes, quotations,
and extracts. Style manusal used is Chicago.
Go forth and submit ye manuscripts!
:-)
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 20:31:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Revill's book
>On the matter of whether we're being too hard on David Revill, I have one
>thing to say: he came perilously close to plagiarizing my dissertation
>(there are whole paragraphs of his description of Music of Changes that are
>minor rewrites of my work), which he cites nowhere. I heard from others
>that he leaned heavily on their uncited work as well. Basically, I think
>anyone who steals someone else's work is a thief, and that's that. How can
>we be "too hard" on him?
I think it's interesting how we are all aguing about intellectual property
right, something which I believe Cage was pretty much against. I can't
remember, but it sure seems that way.
I know I'm against intellectual property right, but it would gall me if
someone swiped my hard earned work. I suppose the key is, if they're using
my work to make them money, that's annoying. If they're just passing it
along, it's okay.
It's not a very well put thought, but it is one none the less.
Any others?
- --
I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep !
like my grandfather, ! Peter Risser
not screaming in terror ! pnr@po.cwru.edu
like his passengers. !
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 19:48:14 +0800
Subject: Revill's book
>
>I think it's interesting how we are all aguing about intellectual property
>right, something which I believe Cage was pretty much against. I can't
>remember, but it sure seems that way.
>
>I know I'm against intellectual property right, but it would gall me if
>someone swiped my hard earned work.
For much of the time I knew him, Cage tried to be a pretty serious anarchist.
However, attitudes towards government and property are not the same. I believ
e
he always had certain feelings towards at least some items of personal and
private property. Also, as I recall, he was either Treasurer or Business
Manager for the Cunningham Dance Foundation during some of its early years.
It is hard to assume a responsibility like that and reject all sense of
property!
> I suppose the key is, if they're using
>my work to make them money, that's annoying. If they're just passing it
>along, it's okay.
>
I am not sure this IS the key. Whenever we are dealing with opinions, rather
than analytic facts, supporting evidence is always helpful. I do not expect
a citation for a date of birth (at least if it is part of public record); but
,
beyond that, I figure I have a right to know what are the products of a
particular author's cogitation and what is the fodder he consumed before
yielding those products. Then again, I have a lot of trouble with "popular"
books. When I see the intellectual havoc wrought by casual books about chaos,
artificial intelligence, artificial life, and consciousness, it just galls me
to think that something as sublime as Cage's music could be similarly abused.
Perhaps I should just remain a stick-in-the-mud and only read scholarly
writing.
- ----------------
Stephen W. Smoliar (smoliar@iss.nus.sg); Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace; Kent Ridge
SINGAPORE 0511; Tel: +65-772-3350; FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: terry kroetsch f <tkroetsc@mach1.wlu.ca>
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 07:47:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Thanks!
On Sat, 10 Dec 1994, toyoji wrote:
> Thanks to all for the most interesting discussion re: _Music For_
> interpretation problems. Especially the thread branch about the _I Ching_!
>
> Cage was a great figure in my life -- his death came as a great shock. I
> feel as though I'm still involved in the "greiving process".
>
> Not to be too morbid, but... What are the details on his death?
> (Cerebral embolism??)...did he die in his apartment in Chelsea
> (N.Y.C.)...was Merce the first to find the body?...what was his funeral
> like?...where is he buried?
>
> Thnaks,
>
> toyoji@mills.edu
>
I notice no one did answer these questions. Anyone - inquiring minds need
to know! Is the possibility of paying respects there?
------------------------------
From: James Pritchett <Jamesp@pgi.petersons.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 11:38:00 EST
Subject: Re: Morbid questions
>> Not to be too morbid, but... What are the details on his death?
>> (Cerebral embolism??)...did he die in his apartment in Chelsea
>> (N.Y.C.)...was Merce the first to find the body?...what was his funeral
>> like?...where is he buried?
>>
>> Thnaks,
.>
>> toyoji@mills.edu
>>
>I notice no one did answer these questions. Anyone - inquiring minds need
>to know! Is the possibility of paying respects there?
It is too morbid. To save you a useless trip to NYC, though, I'll let you
know that there was no funeral and there is no gravesite; John was cremated
and his ashes scattered.
------------------------------
From: Josh Ronsen <rons@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 21:22:03 -0600
Subject: composition list
John Cage Discography
Here is a list of every John Cage composition I can find reference to.
I don't know how useful this is/will be, but if you can think of any
additions or corrections please let me know. I know there are some
problems with the numbered pieces (note the two One^9's), and some of
the others might be mis-super-scripted as well: one of my sources did
not have super-scripts on any of the number pieces, so I had to
basically guess. I have listened to about 90 of the 300? pieces here.
So there.
- -Josh Ronsen <rons@midway.uchicago.edu> -or- <yoshi@arion.com>
Allemande (1931) Chorus on The Persian
Greek Ode (1932) voice and piano
Piano Etudes (1932)
Three Songs for Voice and Piano (1932) [Stein]
Sonata For Two Voices (1933)
Solo with Obbligato Accompaniment of Two Voices in Canon, and Six
Short Inventions on the Subjects of the Solo (1933)
Solo For Clarinet (1933)
20 Years After (1933) voice
Is It As It Was (1933) voice
At East And Ingredients (1933) voice
Six Short Inventions (1934)
Music for Xenia (1934) piano
Counterpoint (1934) piano
Allemande (1934) clarinet
Composition For 3 Voices (1934)
Quartet (for any percussion) (1935)
Three Pieces for Flute Duet (1935)
Two Pieces for Piano (1935)
Quest (1935) piano
Marriage at the Eiffel Tower (1936) piano, trombone, percussion orchestra
Trio (1936) percussion
Music for Wind Instruments No.1 (1937) flute, clarinet and bassoon
Music for Wind Instruments No.2 (1937) oboe and cornet
Music for Wind Instruments No.3 (1937) flute, oboe, clarinet, cornet
and bassoon
Five Songs for Contralto (1938)
Bacchanale (1938? 1940?) prepared piano
America Was Promised (1938) voice and 2 pianos
Metamorphosis (1938) piano
Music for Wind Instruments (1938)
Spiritual (1939) piano
Five Songs (1939) voice
Ho to AA (1939) voice
First Construction (in Metal) (1939)
Imaginary Landscape No.1 (1939)
Living Room Music: A Story (1940) stuff and voice [Stein]
Second Construction (1940)
Four Songs of the Moment (1940) piano
Instances of Silence (1940)
Fads and Fancies in the Academy (1940) piano and percussion
Double Music (1941)
Third Construction (1941)
The City Wears a Slouch Hat (1941) sound effects
Dance (1942) piano
Credo in Us (1942)
Shimmera (1942) prepared piano
Forever and Sunsmell (1942) voice and 2 percussion [Joyce]
Opening Dance (1942) piano
Jazz Study (1942) piano
March (Imaginary Lanscape No.2) (1942)
Imaginary Landscape No.3 (1942) percussion sextet
The Wonderful Widow of Eighteen Springs (1942) Voice and closed piano
Totem Ancestor (1942) prepared piano
And The Earth Shall Bear Again (1942) prepared piano
In the Name of the Holocaust (1942) prepared piano
Amores (1943) prepared piano
Tossed As It Is Untroubled (1943) prepared piano
A Room (1943) prepared piano or piano
She Is Asleep (1943) prepared piano, also tom-tom quartet
What We've So Proudly Hailed (1943) voice, 2 pianos and percussion
Ad Lib (1943) prepared piano
Chess Pieces (1943) piano
Our Spring Will Come (1943) prepared piano
Tripple Pace (1943) prepared piano
Four Dances (1944) piano, percussion and voice
Four Walls (1944) voice and piano
Spontaneous Earth (1944) prepared piano
The Unavailable Memory Of (1944) prepared piano
A Book Of Music (1944) two prepared pianos
The Perilous Night (1944) prepared piano
Root of an Unfocus (1944) prepared piano
Crete (1944) piano
Dad (1944) piano
Prelude for Meditation (1944) prepared piano
A Valentine Out of Season (1944) prepared piano
Three Dances (1945) for two prepared pianos
Daughters of the Lonesome Isle (1945) prepared piano
Lidice (1945) piano
Soliloquy (1945) piano
Thin Cry (1945) piano
Experiences I (1945-48) two pianos
Experiences II (1945-48) voice
Mysterious Adventure (1945) prepared piano
Ophelia (1946) piano
Two Pieces for Piano (1946)
The Encounter (1946) piano
Foreboding (1946) piano
The Feast (1946) piano
Music for "Dreams That Money Can Buy" (1946) prepared piano
Prelude for 6 Instruments in A Minor (1946)
Orestes (1946) piano
Sonatas and Interludes (1946-48) prepared piano
Music for Marcel Duchamp (1947) prepared piano
Nocturne for Violin and Piano (1947)
The Seasons, a Ballet in One Act (1947) orchestra
Dream (1948) piano or viola
In a Landscape (1948) harp or piano
Suite for Toy Piano (1948)
A Flower (1950) voice and closed piano
Music for "Works of Calder" (1950) prepared piano and recorded sounds
Six Melodies for Violin and Keyboard (Piano) (1950)
String Quartet in Four Parts (1950)
Haikus (1950-51) piano
Concerto for Prepared Piano and Chamber Orchestra (1951)
Music of Changes (1951) piano
Imaginary Landscape No.4 (March No.2) (1951) 12 radios
Sixteen Dances (1951)
Two Pastorales (1951) prepared piano and two whistles
Seven Haiku (1951-52) piano
For M.C. and D.T. (1952) piano
4'33" (1952) piano or any instrument
Imaginary Landscape No.5 (1952) tape
Music for Carillon No.1 (1952)
Music for Piano 1 (1952)
Seven Haiku (1952) piano
Wating (1952) piano
Water Music (1952) piano, radio, whistles, water, deck of cards
Williams Mix (1952) tape
59.5" For a String Player (1953)
Music for Piano 2, 3, and 20 (1953)
Music for Piano 4-19 (1953)
Music for Carillon No.2 (1954)
Music for Carillon No.3 (1954) [No.2 performed backwards]
31'57.9864" for a Pianist (1954)
34'46.776" For a Pianist (1954)
45' for a Speaker (1954)
26'1.1499" For a String Player (1955)
Music for Piano 21-36; 37-52 (1955)
Speech (1955) 5 radios and speaker
27'10.554" For a Percussionist (1956)
Music For Piano 53-68 (1956)
Music For Piano 69-84 (1956)
Radio Music (1956) one to eight radios
For Paul Taylor and Anita Dencks (1957) piano interior or other instruments
Winter Music (1957) paino
Concert for Piano and Ochestra (1957-58)
Fontana Mix (1958) tape or any instrument
Aria (1958) voice and other instruments
Communication (1958) speaker
Music Walk (1958) piano(s) and radios or recordings
Solo for Voice (1958)
TV Koeln (1958) piano
Variations I (1958) any instruments
Sounds of Venice (1959) tv's and tapes; bells, boat horns, and a toy
that meows like a cat
Water Walk (1959) tv and tape; mechanical fish, duck call, bathtub, etc
Indetermancy (1959) voice, piano and tape (or stuff)
Cartridge Music (1960) stuff
Duet for Cymbal (1960)
Piano Duet (1960)
Music for Amplified Toy Pianos (1960)
Music for "The Marrying Maiden" (1960) tape and stuff
Solo for Voice 2 (1960)
Theatre Piece (1960)
WBAI (1960) machines
Where Are We Going? And What Are We Doing? (1960) tapes and voice
Atlas Eclipticalis (1961-62) orchestra and perhaps electronics
Music for Carilon No.4 (1961)
Lecture on Commitment (1961) voice
Variations II (1961)
0'00" (4'33" No.2) (1962) amplified non-musical action(s)
Variations III (1962-63)
Variations IV (1963)
Electronic Music for Piano (1964) piano and electronics
Rozart Mix (1965) tape
Variations V (1965)
Variations VI (1966)
Variations VII (1966)
Music For Carillon No.5 (1967)
Musicirus (1967) event
Newport Mix (1967) tape
Reunion (1968) electronics and chess board gate
Mewantemooseicday (1969) event
33 1/3 (1969) 12 turntables
HPSCHD (1969) tape and/or event
Sound Anonymously Recieved (1969) any instruments
Cheap Imitation (1969) piano
Mureau (1970) voice
Song Books: Vols I and II (1970) voice
Sixty-Two Mesostics Re Merce Cunningham (1971) voice
WGBH-TV (1971) composer and technicians
Program (KNOBS) for listener (1971)
Les chants de Maldoror pulverises par l'assistance meme (1971) french
crowd of not more than 200
Demonstration of the Sounds of the Environment (1971)
Cheap Imitation (1972) orchestra
Bird Cage (1972) tapes
Etcetera (1) (1973) 20 musicians and tape
Exercise (1973-84) orchestra
Empty Words (1973-78) voice
Etudes Australes I, II, and VIII (1974) piano
Score (40 Drawings by Thoreau) and 23 Parts (for any instruments
and/or voices): Twelve Haiku followed by a Recording of the
Dawn at Stony Point, New York, August 6, 1974 (1974)
Two Pieces for Piano (1974/1934)
Lecture on the Weather (1975)
Child of Tree (1975) amplified plant materials
Branches (1976) amplified plant materials
Imitations II (1976) clarinet
Quartest I-VIII (for 24 Instruments) (1976)
Renga with Apartment House 1776 (1976) orchestra and 4 vocalists
Inlets (1977) conch shells, water, tape
Writing Through Finnegans Wake (1977)
Cheap Imitation (1977) violin
Telephones and Birds (1977) 3 performers, recordings and telephone
announcements
49 Waltzes (1977) indeterminate organtic materials
Alla Ricerca del Silenzio Perduto (1977) tape and microphone
Freeman Etudes (1977-90) violin
Variation VII (1978)
Chorales (1978) violin
Pools (1978) conch shells and tape
Letter to Erik Satie (1978) voice and tape
Il Treno (1978) 3 happenings for prepared trains
Someday/Sounday (1978) 10-hour radio event
A Dip in the Lake: Ten Quicksteps, Sixty-two Waltzes, and Fifty-six
Marches for Chicago and Vicinity (1978)
Writing for the Second Time Through Finnrgan's Wake (1977)
Some of "The Harmony of Maine" (Supply Belcher) (1978) organ
Etudes Boreales for Cello Solo and for Piano Solo I-IV (1978)
Roaratorio: An Irish Circus on Finnegans Wake (1979) voice, tape,
Irish musicians
Paragraphs of Fresh Air (1979) radio
Dialog (1979) conductors
J.Joyce,M.Duchamp,E.Satie:an Alphabet (1979) text with divisions
Concerto Grosso for 4 TV Sets and 12 Radios (1979)
Hymns and Variations (1979) chorus
Silent Environment (1979) instalation
Furniture Music Etcetera (1980) 2 pianos
Improvisation No.3 (1980)
Litany for the Whale (1980) 2 voices
Thirty Pieces for Five Orchestras (1981)
Evene/Environne METZment (1981) audience
49 Waltzes for the Five Boroughs (1981) piano
A House Full of Music (1982) students
Fifteen Domestic Minutes (1982) letters and radio
Dance/4 Orchestras (1982)
Writing Through the Cantos of Ezra Pound (1982)
Improvisation IV (1982)
Writing Through Kafka's Die Verwandlung (1983)
Thirty Pieces for String Quartet (1983)
John Cage Meets Sun Ra (1983) 2 avant-garde goofballs
ear for EAR (Antiphonies) text without words for single voice
Improvisation No.4 (1983)
Postcard from Heaven (1983) 1-20 harps
Souvenir (1983) organ
HMCIEX (1983-84) game of listening
Ryoanji: Solos for Oboe, Flute, Contrabass, Voice, Trombone with
Percussion or Orchestral Obbligato (1983-85)
Music for Five (1984)
Thirty Movements (1984) quartet
Writing Through Duchamp's Notes (1984)
Mirakus^2 (1984) voice
Selkus^2 (1984) voice
Nowth Upon Nacht (1984) voice and closed piano
Perpetual Tango (1984) piano
A Collection of Rocks (1984) choir and orchestra
Eight Whiskus (1984) voice
Improvisation (1984) ensemble
Musicircus for Children (1984) for many small soundmakers
Music For ________ (1984-87)
Sonnekus^2 (1985) voice
Writing Through On The Duty of Civil Disobedience (1985)
ASLSP (1985) piano
But What About the Noise of Crumpling Paper Which He Used to Do in
Order to Paint the Series of "Papiers Froisses" or Tearing Up
Paper to Make "Papiers Dechires?" Arp Was Stimulated by Water
(Sea, Lake, and Flowing Waters Like Rivers), Forests (1985)
stuff
Voiceless Essays (1985-87) 18 cassette players
Hymnkus (1986) alto flute, clarinet, bassoon, trombone, 2 pianos
Haikai (1986) gamelan
Thirteen Harmonies (1986) violin and keyboard
Rocks (1986) percussion
Wishing Well (1986) 4 speakers
Etcetera 2/4 Orchestras (1986)
Essay (1987) computer generated tape
Two (1987) piano and flute
One (1987) piano
Empty Mind (1987) text for a game of listening
Europeras 1 & 2 (1987) 19 singers, 21 musicians, tape
Truckera (1987) tape for Europeras
Organ/ASLPL (1987) organ
Three Composed Improvisations (1987) drums or bass guitar
Five Stone Wind (1988) drums
Five (1988) any instruments or voices
Twenty-Three (1988) orchestra
101 (1988)
Anarchy (1988)
I-VI (1988) voice
Seven (1988) flute, clarinet, percussion, piano, violin, viola and cello
Two^2 (1989) 2 pianos, 4 hands
Three (1989) 3 recorders
Four (1989) string quartet
Swinging (1989) piano
Sculpures Musicales (1989) 4 performers with electronic instruments
Stufen: an Autoku for Siegfried Unseld (1989) voice
Twenty-Three (1989) 15 violins, 5 violas, 5 cellos
Scottish Circus (1990)
Europera 3 (1989) 6 singers, 2 pianos, 12 victrolas, tape
One^2 (1990) piano
One^3 (1990)
Four^2 (1990) chorus
Europera 4 (1989) 2 singers, 1 piano, tape
One^4 (1990) percussion
One^6 (1990) violin
Fourteen (1990) ensemble
Seven^2 (1990) bass flute, bass clarinet, bass trombone, two
percussionists, cello and contrabass
Haikai (1990) flute and zoomoozophone
The Beatles 1962-1970 (1990) tape of pianos
One^8 (1991) cello
One^9 (1991) sho
Two^3 (1991) sho and conch shell
Two^4 (1991) sho and ? (maybe piano and flute???)
Two^5 (1991) trombone and piano
Three^2 (1991) 3 percussionists
Four^3 (1991) 2 pianos, violin (or oscillator), and rainsticks
Four^4 (1991) percussion
Four^5 (1991) 4 saxophones
Five^2 (1991) ensemble
Five^3 (1991) trombone and quarteto d'archi
Five^4 (1991) 2 saxophones and 3 percussions
Five^5 (1991) ensemble
Six (1991) percussion
Ten (1991) chamber ensemble
103 (1991) orchestra
108 for Large Orchestra (1991)
Five Hanau silence (1991)
Europera 5 (1991) 2 voices, piano, victrola, tape
Twenty-Six (1991) 26 violins
Twenty-Eight (1991) ensemble
Twenty-Nine (1991) ensemble
One^9 (1992) voice
One^10 (1992) cello
One^11 (1992) film
Two^6 (1992) violin and piano
Four^6 (1992) 4 performers
Thirteen (1992) ensemble
Fifty-Eight (1992) ensemble
Sixty-Eight (1992) orchestra
Seventy-Four (1992) orchestra
Eighty (1992) orchestra
Otte (1992) violin
Muoyce No.2 (1992) text and 6 tapes
------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 00:10:51 EST
Subject: RE: composition list
Thanks Josh for that list.
Now that you've done it:
1) the word "discography" generally refers to a listing of recordings. You
probably meant just "a list of works." Yes?
Where did you get this list? New Grove Dict. of American Music?
There are mistakes which I would be willing to help correct if there's
some agreement as to what the purpose of this list is (e.g. making it
available via our listowner's www page).
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music
Librarian
Graduate Center
Music Division
City University of New York
The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
kosovsky@nyplgate.nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions----
---
------------------------------
From: Olivia_MATTIS@umail.umd.edu (om4)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 95 12:18 EST
Subject: Roaring Silence
Concerning David Revill's book, _The Roaring Silence,_ David told me that
his American publisher (as it was a joint American-British project) rushed
the book into print when Cage died. The book was originally supposed to
appear for Cage's 80th birthday, and David had counted on that publication
schedule for final fact-checking, proofreading, etc.
So, please give the publisher its share of the blame.
Olivia Mattis
University of Maryland at College Park
om4@umail.umd.edu
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #6
***************************
Subject: silence-digest V1 #7
Reply-To: silence@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
silence-digest Wednesday, 15 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 007
-------------------------------------------------------------
From: James Pritchett <Jamesp@pgi.petersons.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 95 13:34:00 EST
Subject: RE: Roaring Silence
Olivia Mattis reports:
>Concerning David Revill's book, _The Roaring Silence,_ David told me that
>his American publisher (as it was a joint American-British project) rushed
>the book into print when Cage died. The book was originally supposed to
>appear for Cage's 80th birthday, and David had counted on that publication
>schedule for final fact-checking, proofreading, etc.
>So, please give the publisher its share of the blame.
Olivia, David is conning you. His book appeared on the shelves of my local
bookstore within two months of Cage's death. As you know, book production
schedules are such that his completed, copyedited, page-proofed, indexed
manuscript would have to have been at the printers well before Cage's death.
There is no way that he could have still been at the fact-checking stage in
August and have a book on the shelf in less than two months. In any event,
Cage died within a month of his 80th birthday -- how much difference could
that make to David's schedule?
James Pritchett
-----------------------------
From: Olivia_MATTIS@umail.umd.edu (om4)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 95 16:50 EST
Subject: Re: RE: Roaring Silence
James Pritchett reports:
[David Revill's book]
>appeared on the shelves of my local
>bookstore within two months of Cage's death.
Isn't that a good indication that the book was rushed into press? Faye
Resnick's book on Nicole Brown Simpson took longer than that.
Olivia Mattis
University of Maryland at College Park
om4@umail.umd.edu
----------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 19:23:13 EST
Subject: Re: RE: Roaring Silence
I don't come from the same vantage point as James Pritchett.
I was just using Revill's book as a researcher, trying to make sense of
what he was saying while viewing "the facts" (in my case, Cage's manuscripts).
Just dealing with the 1930s alone was quite infuriating. I'm not accusing
Revill of "rushing" his work to press. I'm accusing him of not supplying
documentation for where he derives his ideas. This is a chronic problem
through the book. Sometimes you can see that, given a few pieces of
evidence, he jumps to certain conclusions - some work, others do not, because
they can be verified as dubious.
Anyone who uses that book has got to come away feeling something is wrong
with his documentation - the format of the book underscores that. Rather
than trying to clarify, it obfuscates the path of understanding factual
points.
While his book is helpful on many facts, certainly the "definitive" biography
has yet to be written.
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music Librarian
Graduate Center Music Division
City University of New York The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu kosovsky@nyplgate.nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my
institutions------
-
------------------------------
From: Josh Ronsen <rons@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 18:48:51 -0600
Subject: RE: composition list
Yes, it's not a discography, but what sort of ography is it? I have complied
the list from about 5 different sources, including Pritchett's book, a
German listing, and an Italian listing in "Sonora", and other books in the
UT library.
Any corrections you could suggest would be appreciatedd. The purpose of the
list is primarily for my own amusement, and if it were a part of Silence's
WWW page then so much the better. What other uses can you think of for such
a thing?
I look forward to hearing from you soon,
Josh
rons@midway.uchicago.edu
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 22:03:43 600
Subject: RE: composition list
> Any corrections you could suggest would be appreciatedd. The purpose of the
> list is primarily for my own amusement, and if it were a part of Silence's
> WWW page then so much the better. What other uses can you think of for such
> a thing?
I would, of course, be pleased to put it up on the Web page.
- ---------1--------1-----------------1-----------------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
--------------------------
From: David W Patterson <dwp1@columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 9:27:40 EST
Subject: Re: RE: Roaring Silence
I'd forewarn Mr. Kosovsky and anyone else out there to watch out for
David Revill's "facts." A good portion of his "bio," it seems to me,
is simply rehashings of the materials found in Silence, A Year From
Monday, and a few other sources. Like many before him, Revill commits
the egregious sin of assuming Cage's recollections as accurate,
historically speaking (despite Cage's many admonitions not to do so).
And Revill is quite handy at making mistakes on his own: his pages on
Black Mountain College, for example, are terribly skewed, and
demonstrate the superficiality of his method throughout his book.
So often I came across a Revill "fact" that I, as a Cage scholar, know
to be untrue, that I have to be utterly skeptical when coming across
any new "fact" that Revill may purport. And I'd have to say no,
Revill's book is NOT a good book for the layman. It's not a good book
for anyone, because it is so often wrong, and tells us little that we
can't learn by reading Cage's books, lectures and articles. Look,
Revill is a percussionist, not a historian or a biographer; Cage's bio
is his dabbling, a fact which seems quite evident to me after the
first several pages.
The consensus is soundly negative, and I can't imagine that ever
changing. Shall we move on to more interesting and worthy topics?
- -David Patterson
Columbia University
dwp1@columbia.edu
------------------------------
From: James Pritchett <Jamesp@pgi.petersons.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 10:29:00 EST
Subject: Re: RE: Roaring Silence
I said:
[David Revill's book]
>appeared on the shelves of my local
>bookstore within two months of Cage's death.
Olivia responds:
> Isn't that a good indication that the book was rushed into press? Faye
> Resnick's book on Nicole Brown Simpson took longer than that.
I work in publishing, and have had a book published myself. Take it from
me: it is not possible to take an unfinished manuscript, turn it into a
hardbound book (with halftone plates!), and deliver those books to
bookstores in less than two months. Cage's death had no bearing whatsoever
on the production schedule of Revill's book -- it simply couldn't have.
Besides, a small esoteric publisher is not going to go to the extravagant
expense of rushing a project like that (it costs plenty of money to change
printing schedules) -- seriously, do you think that Bloomsbury Publishing
was going to realize the kind of profits from a Cage biography that an OJ
quickie book would? The idea is totally ludicrous. As I said, Revill is
conning you by trying to pin blame on his publisher.
James Pritchett
----------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 19:14:20 -0500
Subject: Drury / electronic music
Two things:
I saw a recording of several Cage pieces by Steven Drury (sp?) on
Catalyst records. Is this any good? It had a couple of pieces I
recognized, but I'm wondering about interpretation,m etc.
Second, anyone know of any lists, boards, web sites or what have you that
deal with Electronic or computer music (creation, critiques, etc.)
Just curious.
- --
I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep !
like my grandfather, ! Peter Risser
not screaming in terror ! pnr@po.cwru.edu
like his passengers. !
------------------------------
From: Kent Clelland <kent@shoko.calarts.edu>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:50:22 -447989112 (PST)
Subject: Re: Drury / electronic music
Kent Clelland
kent@shoko.calarts.edu
http://music.calarts.edu/~kent
On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Peter N. Risser wrote:
>
>
> Two things:
>
> I saw a recording of several Cage pieces by Steven Drury (sp?) on
> Catalyst records. Is this any good? It had a couple of pieces I
> recognized, but I'm wondering about interpretation,m etc.
>
> Second, anyone know of any lists, boards, web sites or what have you that
> deal with Electronic or computer music (creation, critiques, etc.)
try these URLs:
http://music.calarts.edu/~kent/Music.html
http://music.calarts.edu/~tre
enjoy!
>
> Just curious.
>
> --
> 'd like to die peacefully in my sleep !
> ike my grandfather, ! Peter
Risser
> ot screaming in terror !
pnr@po.cwru.edu
> like his passengers. !
>
-----------------------------
From: Allen <STRANGE@SJSUVM1.sjsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 18:04:37 PST
Subject: Re: Drury / electronic music
On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 19:14:20 -0500 Peter N. Risser said:
>
>Second, anyone know of any lists, boards, web sites or what have you that
>deal with Electronic or computer music (creation, critiques, etc.)
>
You might try the International Computer Music Association Web site at:
http://coos.dartmouth.edu~rsn/icma/catalog/html
Allen Strange, President
>Drury / electronic music
------------------------------
From: John Fitch <jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 11:26:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Drury / electronic music
Yes I liek your page http://music.calarts.edu/~kent/Music.html
but teh first link to /department/me/research/acoustics/Acoustic does
not work as it is an absolute path, and useless from here!
==John
------------------------------
From: Kent Clelland <kent@shoko.calarts.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 04:04:49 +0000 (PST)
Subject: Re: Drury / electronic music
On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, John Fitch wrote:
> Yes I liek your page http://music.calarts.edu/~kent/Music.html
> but teh first link to /department/me/research/acoustics/Acoustic does
> not work as it is an absolute path, and useless from here!
> ==John
>
Well, sometimes links move... It has been corrected.
While we're on the topic, does anyone know of any good
Cage/indeterminacy/I-ching or DADA pages? (or any permutation of these,
if you're a serialist.) It would be nice to find a link that would
record a sample of live sound from some arbitrary location (like Madison
Square Garden) and download upon request. anyone know of such a link?
would anyone listen in if there was?
Kent Clelland
kent@shoko.calarts.edu
http://music.calarts.edu/~kent
-----------------------------
From: John Saylor <jsaylor@MIT.EDU>
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 09:22:21 EST
Subject: Re: Drury / electronic music
[x]
> I saw a recording of several Cage pieces by Steven Drury (sp?) on
>Catalyst records. Is this any good? It had a couple of pieces I
>recognized, but I'm wondering about interpretation,m etc.
I would wholeheartedly recommend any recording of Cage's work by
Drury. I have heard him perform several of Cage's works, and have
always walked away satisfied. The most telling example is when I
heard him perform a recital shortly after Cage's death. One of the
pieces on the program [my memory fails me] consisted of chords that
were sustained until silence. And he did it, he let the chords ring
until silence. This sounds easy, but for a pianist of Drury's
technical ability to just sit in front of a piano and do nothing while
he had a captive audience is a truly remarkable feat.
As a composer myself, I know that performers often rush through
silences I would like them to linger over.
Anyway- go buy it!
jsaylor
-----------------------------
From: masa@gold.interlog.com (marc sabat)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 15:07:34 -0500
Subject: Malcolm Goldstein CD & concert
Malcolm Goldstein just performed in Toronto at the AGO (Art Gallery of
Ontario) - for those unfamiliar with his work, he is a remarkable
improviser and composer on the violin with a very personal style rooted in
sound-texture and "natural" sounding systems - including several of his own
pieces, as well as solo violin works by Jim Tenney, Ornette Coleman, and
John Cage (Chorals).
Anyone interested in finding out more about his two solo CD's, which
include a wonderful rendering of "Eight Whiskus" as well as works by Philip
Corner, Pauline Oliveros, et al, please mail me.
- ---greetings! marc sabat
------------------------------
From: Phil Gelb <gelb@freenet.scri.fsu.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 16:24:45 18000
Subject: Re: Malcolm Goldstein CD & concert
>
> Malcolm Goldstein just performed in Toronto at the AGO (Art Gallery of
> Ontario) - for those unfamiliar with his work, he is a remarkable
> improviser and composer on the violin with a very personal style rooted in
> sound-texture and "natural" sounding systems - including several of his own
> pieces, as well as solo violin works by Jim Tenney, Ornette Coleman, and
> John Cage (Chorals).
>
> Anyone interested in finding out more about his two solo CD's, which
> include a wonderful rendering of "Eight Whiskus" as well as works by Philip
> Corner, Pauline Oliveros, et al, please mail me.
>
hey marc,
can i get promo copies for the radio shows?
what are you up to these days? I am starting work on a solo CD
project.
phil
>
- --
Philip Gelb
Po Box 65395
Tallahassee, FL 32313
904 561 0069
gelb@freenet.fsu.edu
------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 08:10:14 EST
Subject: List of works
With Josh Ronsen's permission, I'm beginning to initiate discussion
on his list of works of John Cage, with the purpose of being able to
include it on the Cage WWW homepage.
I must admit, I am quite happy to call the list "A list of works of
John Cage" rather than some kind of -ography. (I am reminded of an odd
item in the library devoted to Al Jolson, which the author names a
"Jolsonography" - "Cageography" is too much for me. :-) )
Josh's name & address:
- -Josh Ronsen <rons@midway.uchicago.edu> -or- <yoshi@arion.com>
And on to the list:
I think some distinction should be made between works of which copies are
known to exist and works whose existence we know only from references.
- - Allemande (1931) Chorus on The Persian
- - Greek Ode (1932) voice and piano
The allemande is not part of the collection, nor is there any reference to
its existence. I am wondering if there is some confusion, because the text
of the Greek Ode is from Aeschylus's The Persians.
Not mentioned on the list is the earliest work in the collection:
- - First chapter of Ecclesiastes (1932) for piano
- - Piano Etudes (1932)
The list of works that accompanies the collection, assembled by the
executees, lists etudes from 1930, 1931, and 1932 - though the location
of these is unknown.
- - Three Songs for Voice and Piano (1932) [Stein]
The three songs are the following:
Twenty Years After (1933) voice
If It Was To Be (1933) voice
At East And Ingredients (1933) voice
The name for the 2nd song was listed as: Is It As It Was. I don't know
where this comes from.
That's all I have time for this morning. More later.
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music Librarian
Graduate Center Music Division
City University of New York The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu osovsky@nyplgate.nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my
institutions------
-
------------------------------
From: masa@gold.interlog.com (marc sabat)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 23:31:59 -0500
Subject: Re: List of works
>With Josh Ronsen's permission, I'm beginning to initiate discussion
>on his list of works of John Cage, with the purpose of being able to
>include it on the Cage WWW homepage.
Could someone repost the URL for this page?
- ---thanks, marc
----------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 23:41:26 600
Subject: Re: List of works
masa@gold.interlog.com (marc sabat) writes:
> >With Josh Ronsen's permission, I'm beginning to initiate discussion
> >on his list of works of John Cage, with the purpose of being able to
> >include it on the Cage WWW homepage.
>
> Could someone repost the URL for this page?
Sure: it's "http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/Cage/"
- --------1--------1-----------------1--------1--------1---------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ==== Austin, Texas! \|||
||/ rganizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
-----------------------------
From: slugfest@mercury.sfsu.edu (the mind boggles)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 01:56:10 -0800
Subject: Content-Length: 47
---------------------------
From: "Michael J. McGonagle" <mogo@Mcs.Net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 04:43:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: your mail
On Mon, 6 Feb 1995, the mind boggles wrote:
>
>
>
>
How does one reply to a true Cagian Message?
--------------------------
From: DMB5561719@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 09:15:18 -0500
Subject: Re: your mail
On Mon, 6 Feb 1995, Michael J. McGonagle wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Feb 1995, the mind boggles wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>How does one reply to a true Cagian Message?
He has nothing to say and he is saying it?
----------------------------
From: schr0105@gold.tc.umn.edu (Bob Schrepel)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 95 15:52:13 -0500
Subject: Re: your mail
>
>
>On Mon, 6 Feb 1995, the mind boggles wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>How does one reply to a true Cagian Message?
>
>
>
You just did.
------------------------------
From: "Myron Bennett" <mbennett@TSO.UC.EDU>
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:57:08 -0500
Subject: Greetings, and Happy New Ears
Greetings to all. I just became aware of this list a couple of weeks
ago, and as one of my first attempts to use the Web only this week,
I went to our host's site to get all the back Digests, which I read
in one sitting. Whew! If I were to react in print to all that I saw,
this would be an even longer message.
But I am delighted that the still small group includes such a wide variety
of people, of varying backgrounds and varying degrees of expertise and
interest (and varying degrees of civility.) I look forward to following
the growth of the list, and meeting through it interesting people.
Before I make my first contribution, I should perhaps introduce myself
and set forth my bona fides in this regard.
A couple of years ago, I retired (early) after spending 31 and a half years
as a classical music announcer and Music Programmer at WGUC in Cincinnati.
My main musical interests were always contemporary "classical" music, and
jazz, because that's where the excitement is. (And even holding to the
dictum that "90% of everything is crap," in these fields about another 20%
is at least interesting.) So I was delighted to discover that John would
be Composer in Residence at the University of Cincinnati (my employer) for
a couple of semesters in 1970 or 71 (my memory for years is appalling.)
Happily, I got to know John quite well, went to just about all the public
performances and lectures, even got to run two of the tape machines for
Fontana Mix (and John gave me the 4 tapes for my very own.) He was back
for some time in 1976, I believe it was, and we spent time together then.
We kept a sporadic correspondence going for several years, and on his
occasional visits to Cincinnati, I would see him.
(Should I mention that I did several interview with him for broadcast, and
that I think I still have tapes of some of them?)
As implied above, I have some contributions to make to this group, I
believe, but they well not be academic. I will tend to use the anecdote
(as, of course, John did in his writings.)
As a result of finding this group, I became aware of Pritchett's book, which
I then got (from the library ... sorry, no royalties from me yet) and am
just in the first section so far. (And so far, I find it very interesting.
Can't wait to get to the '70s.) But the question of whether John was
a "Composer" reminded me of the following.
One of the wonderful fruits of John's coming to Cincinnati was that he
became acquainted with Jeanne Kirstein, who was a Pianist In Residence
at the Conservatory (part of U.C.) (and wife of Jack Kirstein, then cellist
with the LaSalle Quartet.) John fell in love with how Jeanne played his
pieces, and chose her to record for Columbia "The Early Piano Music of
John Cage" (which would be a nice candidate for CD reissue, I think.)
During the time of recording in New York, on one of her returns to
Cincinnati, Jeanne told me that one day, as they were listening to a
playback, John said to her in a somewhat wistful tone, "This makes me
realize that I could have been a composer."
I hesitate to tell this, but I think this group can understand what he meant
by it. We all use different definitions of the same word in different
circumstances.
(One of my prized possessions is a set of test pressings for that album,
as well as the album itself as released. Another is the set that John
had George Avakian send me of the 25 year retrospective concert. Glad
to see that it is out on CD, but I wouldn't trade.)
This is even longer than I had anticipated. I'll be back from time to
time.
Myron Bennett
mbennett@tso.uc.edu or
mbennett@iglou.com
----------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:09:55 600
Subject: New Cage Recordings
I just picked up Dorothy Stone's "None But the Lonely Flute" (New
World Records 80546-2), which contains a recording of "Ryoan-ji"
with Stone on flute and Arthur Jarvinen on percussion. So far, it's
my favorite of the recordings I've heard (and there's a lot of them out
there -- I know of two for flute, two for trombone, one for cello, and
one for orchestra). Jarvinen is playing some sort of rattle, giving a
sound like a bike chain being dropped on the sidewalk.
I'm not as fond of the new orchestral recording of the piece on Mode.
The version for orchestra doesn't seem to gain anything from the
addition of more instruments, and the spreading of the beat sounds
clumsy (though I'm pretty sure it sounds as intended).
I greatly enjoy the recording of "Apartment House 1776" on the same
disk, and not only because I've been trying to track down the opening
song, "La Rosa", for several years, since I heard a Sephardic
Cantorial student singing it in my dorm back at Yeshiva University.
The mix of materials works really well, and the individual elements
sound clear and well balanced.
The recording of '1O1' is also good, though it doesn't appeal to me
quite as much as my favorite number-piece recordings, "58" and "4".
- ---------1--------1------------------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #7
**************************
Date sent: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 06:24:32 -0600
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #8
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Tuesday, 28 March 1995 Volume 01 : Number 008
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@sound.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 21:13:10 -0500
Subject: Re: New Cage Recordings
Hello!
This is not a posting about new cage recordings; I was wondering
if anyone had a copy of _Two5_ (for trombone and piano) who would
be willing to photocopy and mail it to me (at my expense) while
I'm awaiting a printed version.
Many thanks.
Rob Haskins
rh@sound.esm.rochester.edu
------------------------------
From: Eric DeLuca <edeluca@shoko.calarts.edu>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 17:20:08 -450183344 (PST)
Subject: [none]
please discontinue my access to this discussion. Thanks.
------------------------------
From: "Josh Ronsen" <yoshi@arion.com>
Date: 24 Feb 1995 16:33:14 -0600
Subject: The Cage/Deren Connection
I just picked up a copy of -The Legend Of Maya Deren: A Documentary Biography
and Collected Works, Volume I, Part Two: Chambers (1942-47)". Deren was a
surrealist film-maker in the 40+s and 50+s. Please read with amusement the
following passages concerning our hero:
pg 190: -In the scene of the banquet [in AT LAND] there appear: Leo Lerman,
author and critic; Richard Hunter, painter; Schuyler Watts, producer and
director; Paquita Anderson, pianist and actress; and Alvin Lustig, who plays
the chess game. Later in the film Philip Lamantia, poet, Parker Tyler,
associate editor of *View*, and John Cage, composer, appear in a sequence of
changing identities. [footnote: The following is a partial list of actors, in
addition to those mentioned above, was compiled from various interviews.
Appearing in the Banquet Scene were: Xenia Cage, sculptress; Dante, musician;
Pablo Mendez, poet; Marie Menkin, film-maker.]
pg 201: [interview with Hella Hammid] -I saw [Deren] in situations where she
really openly competed with other women for attention at parties. Maya+s
parties were legends--and at one of them, a very early one, Xenia Cage was
there, John Cage+s wife. She started to dance. I remember distinctly: she was
sitting on the floor cross-legged, doing some Balinese thing. And *that* was
*Maya+s* act. Maya just went through all kinds of gyrations and started
belly-dancing. She had bells on her toes and her ankles, as she usually did
at those parties. She just started dancing at the other end of the room and
got the attention away from Xenia. It didn+t take two minutes. I was
extremely conscious of it, and *cringed*.+
pg 262: [from a publicity written by Deren, 3/3/45] -I am at present at work
on a short experiment with dance. I am planning to film a *Choreography for
Camera*--where the dance will be choreographed expressly for the camera
rather than for stage front. Talley Beatty, formerly of Katherine Dunham+s
group, will collaborate as the dancer, and John Cage will do a score on
prepared piano.+ [end note: The film is silent; John Cage does not remember
ever planning to score *Choreography*.]
pg 173: [on the movie AT LAND, 1945, much of which was filmed on a Long
Island Beach] -In the words of John Cage, who appeared briefly in AT LAND,
+It wasn+t until 1954 that I moved to the country and became fascinated with
nature. So this was a momentary experience for me, of leaving the city and
going to the country.+ -[end note: interview with John Cage, 2/24/77]
pg 48: -Composer John Cage lived in LA at the time (1943?) and also knew
[Galka] Scheyer [an art collector and Deren+s close friend] well, though he
didn+t meet Deren and Hammid until later in New York. We asked him to compare
his impressions of Maya and Galka. -Galka was an old friend of mine. It was
due to Galka that I gave up painting. At the time I knew her I was both
painting and writing music, and the people whose opinions I respected, as I
did hers, said nicer things to me about my music than about my painting....
She was a marvelous person, also [like Maya] of great energy. But she was
curiously outside of herself, where Maya was very much inside herself. Maya
was fascinated, it seemed to me, by her *intentions*, whereas I don+t think
Galka was. For instance, Galka loaned me a beautiful painting by Klee. It was
one you+ve often seen reproduced, a Venus with some lace at the top. It was
absolutely gorgeous. I had it for about a month, and then I returned it to
her and she said +Oh, you could have kept it. I had forgotten who I gave it
to.+ And she used to drive into Los Angeles with her rumble seat open,
stacked full of Klees an Kandinskys and everything, and just leave it parked
there, and go away for hours, and come back just confident that they would be
there. An extraordinary person! I don+t know that that+s different [from
Maya], but Galka also had great positive energy. People at the point of
suicide would come wandering up into the hills to throw themselves somewhere,
and they would be drawn to her like a magnet, and she would reinspire them
about the value of living+ [ibid.]
The movie AT LAND can be found on a collection called -The Experimental Films
of Maya Deren+ on Mystic Fire, I think. I highly recondmend the collection,
and not at all due to Cage+s minor presence (I did not notice him when I saw
the film sometime in the past year).
- -Josh
yoshi@arion.com
------------------------------
From: slugfest@mercury.sfsu.edu (the mind boggles)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:09:03 -0800
Subject: bay area Cage performance
bay area people might be interested to know--
cage's
wonderful widow of eighteen springs
and
forever and sunsmell
will be part of a recital held
tuesday, 1pm
march 21st, 1995 @
knuth recital hall
San Francisco State University
1600 Holloway, Creative Arts Building
admission is free
more info
SFSU Music Dept. Office 415.338.1431
- -dennis
------------------------------
From: terry kroetsch f <tkroetsc@mach1.wlu.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 07:44:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: new CDs
Just received: Jack Behrens "Water Music"
contains: Water Music, Prelude for Meditation, Music for Marcel Duchamp, Two2
as well as Satie: Embryons desseches and Behrens: A Fable - For
the Wailing Fleets
Jack gave this to me yesterday - it was released February - but told me
they can't sell it yet because Double Edge still has the recording rights
to Two2. Cage was involved in this recording following Jack and John's
work on Europera 5 in Buffalo. Apparently this has jsut been released on
CD as well. Does anyone have info on this? I have the dubiuous pleasure
of having been in a couple of performances of Europera but...well...I
fell asleep in the middle of the last one, was very surprised to wake up
ON STAGE, and have no recollection of the show. Would enjoy hearing it again.
Terry
------------------------------
From: PaulT23@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 22:51:14 -0500
Subject: Europera 5 ( was: "Re: new CDs" )
terry kroetsch wrote :
>Cage was involved in this recording following Jack and John's
>work on Europera 5 in Buffalo. Apparently this has jsut been
> released on CD as well. Does anyone have info on this?
I purchased this CD sometime last Fall Here is some basic info :
Mode Records Mode 36 CD ( Cage Vol. 8 )
Europera 5 (1991) 60:01
Produced by Brian Brandt
Recorded at Slee Hall, State University of New York at Buffalo
on April 12, 1991 ( dress rehearsal )
Martha Herr, soprano
Gary Burgess, tenor
Yvar Mikhashoff, piano
Jan Wiliams, Victrola ( 78 rpm )
Don Metz, "Truckera" tape
composer supervised recordings
I am not much for writing reviews, but I would recommend this recording if
you already think you know what it is all about.
The liner notes also mention that a recording of Europera's 3 & 4 as
performed by The Long Beach Opera will be available "Later this Year". I took
that to mean late 1994, but I haven't seen them yet ( and would like to hear
it ). I am also eager to hear a recording of Europera's 1 & 2. Does anyone
know of any actual or planned releases including these works?
Paul
------------------------------
From: PaulT23@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 22:52:17 -0500
Subject: WSD Cage discussions ( long )
Hello folks,
I know that this is the silence list, but too much of a good thing is still
too much. How about some traffic. Or are you all too busy performing
"Seashells" to write to each other? ; )
If I am breaking any list rules ( I wouldn't think that Cagians would be too
strict ), please accept my apologies. I am a newbie on this list, I found
the address in Keyboard magazines Internet column. I am an avid student of
Cage's theories and works, as well as a purchaser of compact discs that
represent aural snapshots of performances of Cage's scores.
I subscribe to various e-mail lists, and two of them in particular have been
discussing Cage frequently in the last few weeks. The following quotes all
come from the World Serpent Mailing list ( wsd-l@hmc.edu ). The general topic
is discussion of music that is released through the world Serpent
distribution network, especially the works of Coil, Current93, Death in June
and Nurse With Wound, amongst others. However, discussion of relevant modern
principles of music also crop up often on this list ( as well as on my
favorite list : ambient@hypperreal.com ).
I thought it was curious that there is more discussion regarding John Cage on
these lists than there is on the Silence list ( it is probably just because
there doesn't seem to be much discussion on Silence at all ). So I humbly
forward these words to you in hopes of sparking some conversation, or at
least providing you with some external opinions. I know that this post is
long, and apologize again to those with puny modems, but I thought that after
no mail for some time from this list, it might be OK.
Beast of Eden (boe666@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> I need some elaboration on exactly what the post-Cage dialectic of time
> and space is, and I'm probably not the only one.
>
Harvey Thornburg (Harvey_Thornburg@hmc.edu) wrote :
>The following is merely my opinion, and illustrates the way I go about
>thinking about and enjoying this music.
>For the short version, we could start with the idea of music as organized
>time (no models, conventions beyond this assumption). The next step is to
>ask what are the framing concepts of musical time. The soundscape provides
>the allegory of space, and one of the principal characteristics of ambient
>soundscapes seems to be that the compositional space of the soundscape be
>reconciled/played off against the listener's emotional experience of space.
>In "Soliloquy for Lilith", the arrow of time turns on itself. The pieces
>have neither a proper beginning or ending, yet are satisfiably complete.
>Much of this is accomplished by the looped passages. Yet the loops do not
>"evolve" in a continuously predictable manner. The capacity for change is
>directionless: the listener is drawn in to see all possibilities of each
>musical/temporal fragment; indeed, to comprehend that "the only constant
>thing is change". As the soundscape curves around itself, the illusion of
>ambient space seems to stretch out to infinity. This feeling of
>unboundedness is independent of scale. "Soliloquy for Lilith" is the only
>recording that sustains the illusion of complete spatial immersion whether
>listening with headphones, with a cheap stereo system in a small room, over
>a gigantic PA in an abandoned warehouse, or in any one of several outdoor
>settings. Actually, the Arcane Device album "Envoi in Cumin" produces a
>similar effect. Some Organum pieces appearing before SFL yield experiences
>along the same lines, though resist the latter's structural orthodoxy.
Mark Kolmar (mkolmar@ccs.nslsilus.org ) wrote :
>My interpretation/adaptation of John Cage's musical philosophies: Any
>sound may follow any other sound. The composer does not deal in
>intentions, s/he deals in sounds. The listener's attention makes the
>music, and is solely responsible for subjective interpretations (which,
>granted, take place in a social/societal context which leaves plenty of
>room for outside influence to the listener's reactions).
>The evolution of humankind's appreciation of music and sound develops as
>we find purpose and organization (even order and consonance) in
>increasingly "chaotic" sound structures (cf. Merzbow). Look more and more
>deeply at chaos, and you find there is underlying order. (_Soliloquy for
>Lilith_ is a fine example.)
>Morton Feldman, an associate of Cage and a brilliant composer in his own
>right, wrote that form is primarily an aid to memory. (And, I add, form
>plays off memory--when any sound follows any other sound, the listener may
>hear that sound as essentially similar to or the same as the previous
>sound, or essentially different from the previous sound, or related in
>some way to an earlier sound.) In his piece _Triadic Memories_, Feldman
>turns the idea of form as an aid to memory on it's head by deliberately
>using the form to confuse memory. He writes that it is "like walking the
>streets of Berlin, where all the buildings look the same *even if they
>are not*." (_Soliloquy for Lilith_ operates on a similar level.)
>For late Feldman, _Triadic Memories_ is a medium length piece at approx
>72 mins (or so, as typically played, since the score indicates no
>tempo). A piece like _For Phillip Guston_ lasts 4-1/2 hours. One gets
>the sense listening to this work (see also: _For Christian Wolff_, _For
>Bunita Marcos_) that time is accellerated, decellerated, indeed
>non-linear.
>I wanted to elaborate on this point just a bit. I will use the European
>model of harmony & tonality as a basis since that is what I am most familiar
>with. (Similar logic might be applied to other culture's musics based
>more on rhythm and/or different models of harmony & tonality.)
>The original music was melody by the human voice. Eventually, someone
>got the idea of adding a second pitch, at the octave above--i.e. a 2:1
>ratio. Next step was to add a pitch at the fifth--i.e. a 3:2 ratio.
>Other, simple ratios followed, leading to triadic harmony and tonal
>centers.
>(I'll skip a lot here, but suffice to say, to make better use of different
>tonal centers, the 3:2, 4:3 ratios, etc. were for the most part replaced
>by equal temperament tuning.)
>By the end of the 19th century, the idea of tonal centers (keys) had been
>stretched to the point where it becomes more difficult and less
>meaningful to attempt to analyze pieces in terms of each chord serving a
>particular function in it's relationship to the tonal center. In such
>analysis, you could find it necessary to apply rather remote and complex
>relationships to a chord relative to three simultaneous tonal centers.
>Eventually, this broke down even further. Composers began to use other
>principles to organize sound material (e.g. twelve-tone method, modes of
>limited transposition). But even these methods were applied primarily to
>pitch (but later also rhythm, dynamics, and articulation). Electronic
>instruments and the tape recorder opened up enormous possibilities for the
>organization of sound.
>Over the last millenium, we have gone from an appreciation of the simplest
>frequency ratios (1, 2:1, 3:2) to an understanding or acceptance (at least
>at the fringe) of musical structures that make use of extremely
>complicated frequency relationships likely unknown even to the composer
>(e.g. Merzbow), psychoacoustic phenomena (e.g. Hafler Trio, John Duncan),
>timbre and changes in timbre (e.g. _Soliloquy for Lilith_, Arcane Device).
and Renee Rosen ( rrosen@falcon.cc.ukans.edu ) wrote :
>Western music (and the teaching thereof) is almost entirely harmonically
>based--here at KU, for instance, all music majors must take four
>semesters of music theory (ie, basic rules of harmony). Theory and
>composition majors are required to take more theory courses, including
>counterpoint, orchestration, etc., but not one course in rhythm is
>given. The only mention of rhythm is basically how to count and the
>concept of harmonic rhythm. Western art music is incredibly harmonically
>rich yet rhythmically very poor. Even Western folk music is more
>rhythmically complex and interesting that much of classical music.
>Obviously, this is changing within the 20th century, and more composers
>are getting into exploring rhythm. (If you haven't already, check out a
>book called _Music Society Education_ byt Christopher Small--fascinating
>but controversial theories of the role and use of music in various world
>cultures.) (Yeah, I know the above paragraph had little to do with
>Mark's statement--it's just a rant I've wanted to express for awhile.
>The rest of this post will stay a *bit* more on topic, I promise:)
>Have you ever read any of the theoretical works of Harry Partch,
>especially _Genesis of a Music_? Partch, for those who don't know, was a
>20th C American avant-garde composer. He invented his own microtonal
>system and his own instruments in order to realise his vision. Great
>stuff, well worth checking out. Anyway, Partch tends to lean towards
>your theory of the first music, but he ties it more to words than to just
>the voice. Total butchering/oversimplification, I know, but it's hard to
>explain in just a few sentences. He mentions but dismismesses the
>theories of primitive music that claim that the first music was
>rhythmic/ecstatic dance oriented. (My personal theory: the first two
>instruments were the human voice and things to bang on (trees, rocks,
>other people:). The first is notes (and from there, melody), the second is
>rhythm--what are usually seen as the primary elements of music. Music that
>is just notes, such as Gregorian chants, is usually accepted as music in
>our society, whereas purely rhythm-based music is not. This, of course,
>brings up the question of whether or not music requires both rhythm and
>melody to be music, just one, or neither. Is there a kind of sound art
>other than music? Cage defined music as being any collection of
>sound--is that really music, or is there another art-form that can be
>made out of sound? Is something like, for instance, Negativland, music
>or sound art?)
>Anyway, back to ratios. This is all based on the idea of relative
>pitch. In Western music, the relationship between the notes (the
>intervals) are more important than the notes themselves. When a familiar
>melody is transposed, for instance, most people can still recognize
>it. People tend to consider notes that are an octave a part as essentially
>the "same" note--are they really? Is all this a byproduct of relative
>pitch (a trainable skill)? Do people with absolute pitch hear music in a
>completely different way than than others do?
>I remember discussing this in a class comparing different schools of
>harmony--we ended up wondering if harmonic analysis in many ways was as
>useless to understanding music as spelling the words in poem. Did
>composers like Schumann or Wagner think about harmony, or did they just
>write chords that sounded good together?
>Don't forget the greater acceptance of non-pitched and ambiguously
>pitched sounds in music. Boyd Rice (on topic again, Yay!:) said in some
>interview (I *think* Tape Delay) that he was saying for years that noise
>would someday become part of popular music, and people just thought he
>was nuts. (Well, he *is* nuts, but that doesn't mean he's never
>right;-) But today groups like Public Enemy or Nine Inch Nails are
>mainstream. This reincorporation of non-pitched sounds into Western
>music has been happening for years--check out the the aforementioned Small
>book for more details.
>
> On Sat, 25 Mar 1995, Mark Kolmar wrote:
>
> > The evolution of humankind's appreciation of music and sound develops as
> > we find purpose and organization (even order and consonance) in
> > increasingly "chaotic" sound structures (cf. Merzbow).
>
>Isn't that the whole history of humanity--trying to make order out of
>chaos, sense out of nonsense, meaning out of meaninglessness, and placing
>artifical borders in natural continuums?
- --
So there it is. Take them as you will. If you feel the need to respond you
may contact me or any of the above persons individually or send a post to
silence@bga.com or to wsd-l@hmc.edu ( along with a note that you do not
subscribe, therefore replies must be individually ).
PaulT23
------------------------------
From: Olivia_MATTIS@umail.umd.edu (om4)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 10:22 EST
Subject: Photographs
For those of you living in the New York area, there's a gallery exhibition
that you may enjoy: Snyder Fine Art on West 57th St. is showing a historic
collection of photographs of composers, including dear ol' J.C.
The photos were all taken by Naomi Savage (Man Ray's niece) in 1949, and
include portraits of Cage, Varese, Virgil Thomson, Paul Bowles, Slonimsky, and
virtually every other composer or "modern minded" musician in New York in
that year.
This exhibition marks the first time that these images have been shown
together as a group. For any of you with $850.00 to spare, they're also for
sale.
The Cage photo is the famous one that's available on postcard and that's
reproduced in the Boulez-Cage correspondence, with the composer sitting in
the corner of a darkened room, facing a window. It's quite a beautiful
portrait.
If anyone's interested, I can dig up the exact info on the dates and address
of the exhibition. I know that it's only running for another couple of
weeks, if that.
Olivia Mattis
University of Maryland at College Park
om4@umail.umd.edu
------------------------------
From: John Saylor <jsaylor@MIT.EDU>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 11:03:57 EST
Subject: Re: WSD Cage discussions ( long )
[x]
>> I need some elaboration on exactly what the post-Cage dialectic of time
>> and space is, and I'm probably not the only one.
Just wait quietly, and soon you won't care.
>>The composer does not deal in
>>intentions, s/he deals in sounds.
A very good point, but don't tell that to Wagnerites.
>>The listener's attention makes the
>>music, and is solely responsible for subjective interpretations (which,
>>granted, take place in a social/societal context which leaves plenty of
>>room for outside influence to the listener's reactions).
And let's not forget about the role of the performing
musicians in this complex interaction.
>>The evolution of humankind's appreciation of music and sound develops as
>>we find purpose and organization (even order and consonance) in
>>increasingly "chaotic" sound structures (cf. Merzbow). Look more and more
>>deeply at chaos, and you find there is underlying order.
In my opinion, music [and all arts] are not
"evolutionary," that is a misguided analogy. While there
are certain "schools" of artists that employ a common
technical language, and similar aesthetic aims, leading
to generations of artists, somewhat analagous to Darwin's
intellectual construct; today's "art" is not more evolved
than yesterdays. A chant is every bit as much of a full
featured and beautiful artistic entity as a Sun Ra chart
is.
I think music made today has more artistic resonance with
me because it can reference things that earlier music
cannot. But this is not evolution, with the accompanying
"survivial of the fittest" baggage- this is living in the
present rather than the past. And the majority of the
"chaotic" music has beeen rejected by the listening public
at large [which includes some intelligent people]. I
like complicated music, I like simple music, I like music
that means something regardless of how complicated it's
sound world is.
If we are so evolved, why is Kenny G so popular? And
what about Gorecki, how does he fit into your declamation
that we find purpose and order in increasingly chaotic
sound structures?
>>The original music was melody by the human voice. Eventually, someone
>>(I'll skip a lot here, but suffice to say, to make better use of different
>>By the end of the 19th century, the idea of tonal centers (keys) had been
>>Eventually, this broke down even further. Composers began to use other
>>Over the last millenium, we have gone from an appreciation of the simplest
There are other explanations of music history that do not
have this same evolutionary undertone [see above].
>>Isn't that the whole history of humanity--trying to make order out of
>>chaos, sense out of nonsense, meaning out of meaninglessness, and placing
>>artifical borders in natural continuums?
No. But the struggle you describe has captured a lot of
[mostly european] people's attention.
- --
<a href="http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jsaylor/home.html">
jsaylor</a>
------------------------------
From: Mete Ergenekon <e068211@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 18:01:16 +0300 (MEST)
Subject: Indetermancy
Does anyone have the text of "indetermancy"?
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 19:09:51 -0500
Subject: RE: Europera 3, 4, 5
The Europera 3 & 4 recording will be out soon. Last I heard, the book was
in production. I wrote the notes for that one, too; for an advance peek,
check out my home page:
http://www.music.princeton.edu:80/~jwp
(I think that address is right. If you can't get there, try
http://www.music.princeton.edu and look for me under "guests, visitors", etc.)
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU
------------------------------
From: sarmad@clark.net
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 18:53:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Indetermancy
For text of indeterminacy, you might check out the book Silence, Lectures and
writings by John Cage
Brody
------------------------------
From: PaulT23@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 00:13:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Indeterminacy
Mete Ergenekon wrote :
>Does anyone have the text of "indetermancy"?
First of all, thats "Indeterminacy".
Most of the stories featured on the Smithsonian/Folkways recording of
"Indeterminacy" are located pages 260->273 of the book "Silence" (
1961,Wesleyan University Press ) by John Cage. The stories that aren't
collected there are contained in the texts of other sections of the same
book.
Everyone reading this list should really take the time to read ( or reread )
all of "Silence". It should be required reading for everyone on this list.
Better yet, go out and buy a copy. I think it is still in print. I got mine
used ( first edition hardback too :) ).
If someone on the list knows the best source from which to acquire a copies
of silence, please speak up & help those in need.
Paul
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 19:48:40 +0000
Subject: Re: Indetermancy
Mete Ergenekon <e068211@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> Does anyone have the text of "indetermancy"?
Much (all?) of the text appears in Cage's books "Silence" and "A Year
From Monday". Both are worth buying (well, so are the rest of Cage's
books, but these two especially), and many university libraries have
them.
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: PaulT23@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 02:15:14 -0500
Subject: FWD : John Cage from Ambient list
This message was originally posted on Ambient list @ hyperreal.com where it
actually drew quite a few flames for being off topic. However, it seemed dead
on topic for this list - so here it is.
From: "Per H. Svalastog" <Per.H.Svalastog@aho.no>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 19:07:11 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: John Cage
the arts are not isolated,
froM one another
bUt engage in dialogue
thiS
understanding wIll
introduCe
new kinds
of spAtial
phenomenoN, however each art
can Do
what
An
otheR
Cannot
it Has been
predIctable
therefore, thaT
nEw
musiC will be answered by
The new
architectUre-
woRk we have
not yet seEn
- only heard.
------------------------------
From: Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 23:47:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Indeterminacy
i've been doing a weekly reading of one randomly selected page from
silence, and other cage texts on my radio show on kaos olympia 89.3 fm.
the show is "what's this called" featuring experimental music and airs
from 11 p.m. wednesdays to 1 a.m., and i do the "page of cage" segment
at exactly midnight. - ricardo wang
------------------------------
From: G Badamshina <gb11@tmphost.york.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:23:07 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Speaking About Music And Architecture...
People writing/researching JC's literature (or alike, I DO KNOW THE
LATTER IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE),
Are you there?..
Ms GHUZAL BADAMSHINA Tel.: 01904 432644
James College, Fax: 01904 432450 (Music Dept)
University of York, E-mail: gb11@unix.york.ac.uk
Heslington, York, YO1 5DD Personal Web Area: under construction
United Kingdom
cagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecage
"GOING IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS WE GET INSTEAD OF SEPARATION
A SENSE OF SPACE"
cagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecagecage
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #8
***************************
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silence-digest Saturday, 1 April 1995 Volume 01 : Number 009
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: williamsm@acad.winthrop.edu
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:47:54 -0500
Subject: 27'10.554
WINTHROP UNIVERSITY Electronic Mail Message
Date: 29-Mar-1995 11:35am EST
From: Michael Williams
WILLIAMSM
Dept: Music
Tel No: 323-2255
TO: Remote Addressee ( _SMTP%"silence@bga.com" )
Subject: 27'10.554"
Does anyone know of an acceptable method of shortening any of the "time-length"
compositions such as 27'10.554" For A Percussionist, either by means of chance
operations or superimposition? I understand that the Percussion Group Cincinnati
has performed a seven-minute version of 27'10.554". Any ideas as to how this
might be accomplished for a soloist - or is such a procedure akin to playing
only the exposition of a Beethoven symphony? Just wondering....
Michael Williams
Winthrop University
------------------------------
From: torc@netcom.com (Torc)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 21:55:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Reproductions of composers' paintings and art?
Hello,
Does anyone out there know of any mail-order or places in the S.F. Bay
Area which sell reproductions or prints of visual artworks by composers?
I'm looking specifically for stuff from Cage and Schoenberg.
Thanks in Advance,
- --Torc.
------------------------------
From: Olivia_MATTIS@umail.umd.edu (om4)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 95 09:31 EST
Subject: Re: Reproductions of composers' paintings and art?
>Hello,
>Does anyone out there know of any mail-order or places in the S.F. Bay
>Area which sell reproductions or prints of visual artworks by composers?
>I'm looking specifically for stuff from Cage and Schoenberg.
>
>Thanks in Advance,
>--Torc.
>
Have you asked the Schoenberg Institute in L.A.?
Olivia Mattis
University of Maryland at College Park
om4@umail.umd.edu
------------------------------
From: rpacker@slip.net (Randall Packer)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 08:48:32 -0800
Subject: unsuscribe
Please unsuscribe me.
Thanks,
Randall Packer
------------------------------
From: The Messiah Of The 90s <NAUMANN@Butler.EDU>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 13:33:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Reproductions of composers' paintings and art?
I don'y know about the Bay area but the Chicago Institute of Art has a
photograph of Schoenberg taken by Man Ray in their collection. One might
try contacting them for more info. (Sorry this isn't relevant to Cage
everyone . . . )
------------------------------
From: "Jerry L Young" <jerry_l_young@riscgate.sps.mot.com>
Date: 30 Mar 1995 12:56:57 U
Subject: Re: Reproductions of compos
Reply to: RE>>Reproductions of composers' paintings and art?
>I don'y know about the Bay area but the Chicago Institute of Art has a
>photograph of Schoenberg taken by Man Ray in their collection. One might
>try contacting them for more info. (Sorry this isn't relevant to Cage
>everyone . . . )
Randol Schonberg, the grandons of Arnold and son of Ronald (note the permutations on the
name) is a frequent contributor to rec.music.classical. I'll bet you could track him down
there.
I am racking my brain trying to remember the name of the printers in Berkeley where Cage
would go do work every January. It may be mentioned on some of his prints. Or I'm sure
someone on this list will be able to summon the name up without as much strain
as it would be on my brain.
Jerry
------------------------------
From: Mark Kolmar <mkolmar@ccs.nslsilus.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 13:44:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
Please describe the score.
And "acceptable" is quite a subjective thing.
a) Compress the time-scale (e.g. 1" = 1 sec --> 4" = 1 sec) (where
applicable)
b) Use chance operations to determine a place in the score to begin
playing. Start playing. After seven minutes, stop.
c) Use chance operations to determine two or more seven-minute sections
to play, and play them at the same time.
The instructions for the time-length pieces allow for two or more of them
to be played simultaneously in any combination. I don't suppose it would
be sacrilege to play portions of one of these pieces simultaneously.
Cage's score would still serve as a means of allowing the performer to
play music.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
On Wed, 29 Mar 1995 williamsm@acad.winthrop.edu wrote:
> Does anyone know of an acceptable method of shortening any of the "time-length"
> compositions such as 27'10.554" For A Percussionist, either by means of chance
> operations or superimposition? I understand that the Percussion Group Cincinnati
> has performed a seven-minute version of 27'10.554". Any ideas as to how this
> might be accomplished for a soloist - or is such a procedure akin to playing
> only the exposition of a Beethoven symphony? Just wondering....
------------------------------
From: David P Miller <dpmiller@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:11:26 +0001 (EST)
Subject: Re: Reproductions of compos
On 30 Mar 1995, Jerry L Young wrote:
>
> I am racking my brain trying to remember the name of the printers in
Berkeley where Cage would go do work every January.
It may be mentioned on some of his prints.
Or I'm sure someone on this list will be able to summon the name up without
as much strain as it would be on my brain.
>
> Jerry
>
I believe that Cage did his graphic work at Crown Point Press, which as
far as I know is in Oakland.
BTW, has anyone heard of plans to publish a cataloge raisonne of Cage's
graphic work? It's none too soon.
David Miller
dpmiller@world.std.com
------------------------------
From: David P Miller <dpmiller@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:08:25 +0001 (EST)
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
In the Peters Cage catalog, 1962, there is this note by Cage regarding
27'10.554" for a Percussionist:
"This piece may be segmented at structural points indicated by dotted
lines and the segments superimposed in any way to provide duets, trios,
etc." This note must surely be provided in the score.
In other words, he's providing 27'10.554" worth of *musical
material* to select from, using a system of notation where space equals
time. The title does not designate running time,
and further, I'm sure that Cage wouldn't have required even the most
remarkable virtuoso to perceive .554 of a second! :-)
On _The Contemporary Contrabass_, an old Nonesuch LP (H-71237), Bertram
Turetzky, performs 26'1.1499" for a String Player. Running time: 16'17".
David Miller
dpmiller@world.std.com
------------------------------
From: jr@amanue.pgh.net (Jim Rosenberg)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 00:22:45 -40962758 (EST)
Subject: Re: Reproductions of compos
> I am racking my brain trying to remember the name of the printers in
> Berkeley where Cage would go do work every January.
I believe you're thinking of Crown Point Press.
- --
Jim Rosenberg -- dropit!amanue!jr
CIS: 71515,124 UUCP: / |
WELL: jer pitt! ditka!
Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@sound.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:53:46 -0500
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
David MIller wrote:
> In other words, he's providing 27'10.554" worth of *musical
> material* to select from, using a system of notation where space equals
...
I don't think one can use the remark from the Peters catalogue to
justify what this above sentence _could imply,_ that is that one
could select some (not all) of the music in thepiece for a
performance. It seems that the time durations were important
in the compositional conception. Perhaps a good performance
is one that is as close as possible to those durations (like
a good performance of the Freeman Etudes is one that is
as virtuosic as possible, for example). This is not to
slam Bertram Turetzky, by the way... unless he left out
parts of the piece.
It's early in the morning. Does this make any sense?
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
From: williamsm@acad.winthrop.edu
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:24:59 -0500
Subject: 27'10.554
WINTHROP UNIVERSITY Electronic Mail Message
Date: 31-Mar-1995 11:01am EST
From: Michael Williams
WILLIAMSM
Dept: Music
Tel No: 323-2255
TO: Remote Addressee ( _SMTP%"silence@bga.com" )
Subject: 27'10.554"
The note provided in the score reads:
"A correspondance [sic] between time and space is made so that each page = one
minute; the numbers above the systems are the seconds of the minute. A
performance with stringplayer and/or pianists may be made providing the latter
use an equal number of structural units of their parts." The only other comment
is that the piece "may be performed as a recording or with the aid of a
recording."
The implications are that 1) "structural units" may be extracted from the parts
of the string player or pianist in joint performances and 2) portions of the
work may be recorded and superimposed over a "live" performance.
There is no mention in the score of superimposing parts for ensemble
performances, but I'm sure that must have been the case with the Cincinnati
group (a trio).
Michael Williams
------------------------------
From: Erik Seligman <Erik_Seligman@BEEHIVE.MC.CS.CMU.EDU>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:48:19 -0500
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
Here's a question which may be naive, but seems appropriate:
Why does anyone care about the score to a (chance-generated) Cage piece?
Since he describes the methods he uses to create them, wouldn't it be much
more in the Cage spirit to create a new piece from scratch, using Cageian
chance methods, for each performance?
Just a thought...
---Erik
Disclaimer: I'm a computer geek, not a musician, so please don't flame me. :-)
------------------------------
From: John Saylor <jsaylor@MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:48:05 EST
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
>Why does anyone care about the score to a (chance-generated) Cage piece?
You are [perhaps] mistaking chance for randomness. Even
though aleatoric [chance] processes are used by Cage
explicitly, the pool from which a particular "event" is
taken is not unlimited.
For instance, I heard John give some lectures at Harvard
shortly before he died. The words were picked "by chance
procedures" from very specific source material. And as he
said, "I felt free to throw away anything I didn't like."
[I'm paraphrasing]. So, even though you might be lead to
believe that it was gibberish [as some there felt], an
astute listener could pick up an artistic experience and
even some linear meaning [!] from the lectures.
>Since he describes the methods he uses to create them, wouldn't it be much
>more in the Cage spirit to create a new piece from scratch, using Cageian
>chance methods, for each performance?
What is the Cage spirit?
>Disclaimer: I'm a computer geek, not a musician, so please don't flame me. :-
No flames, but if you don't want to stand up for what you
write, don't send it in!
- --
<a href="http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jsaylor/home.html">
jsaylor</a>
------------------------------
From: sarmad@clark.net
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:15:47 -0500
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
?
>
>Since he describes the methods he uses to create them, wouldn't it be much
>more in the Cage spirit to create a new piece from scratch, using Cageian
>chance methods, for each performance?
>
A unique and personal (even though he may deny it) temporal space arises
out of Cage's 'chance methods'. This will probably become clearer to
listeners as time passes. Hmm. People have to discover their own ways of
working.
----Brody
------------------------------
From: harryk@rain.org
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:45:44 -0800
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
>Here's a question which may be naive, but seems appropriate:
>
>Why does anyone care about the score to a (chance-generated) Cage piece?
>
>Since he describes the methods he uses to create them, wouldn't it be much
>more in the Cage spirit to create a new piece from scratch, using Cageian
>chance methods, for each performance?
>
>Just a thought...
>
> ---Erik
>
>Disclaimer: I'm a computer geek, not a musician, so please don't flame me. :-)
was it gertrude stein who said a naive is a naive is a naive? - if cage was
an inventor and used the spirit of chance methods and created scores to
document the approach and then used those scores to approximate his idea
what would stop you or anyone else from doing the same? inventors/composers
are not the same as collectors/musicologists. the mountain and the cloud.
:-)
onward into the wild blue sky... steve
------------------------------
From: harryk@rain.org
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:21:08 -0800
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
>>Why does anyone care about the score to a (chance-generated) Cage piece?
>
>You are [perhaps] mistaking chance for randomness. Even
>though aleatoric [chance] processes are used by Cage
>explicitly, the pool from which a particular "event" is
>taken is not unlimited.
>
>For instance, I heard John give some lectures at Harvard
>shortly before he died. The words were picked "by chance
>procedures" from very specific source material. And as he
>said, "I felt free to throw away anything I didn't like."
>[I'm paraphrasing]. So, even though you might be lead to
>believe that it was gibberish [as some there felt], an
>astute listener could pick up an artistic experience and
>even some linear meaning [!] from the lectures.
>
>>Since he describes the methods he uses to create them, wouldn't it be much
>>more in the Cage spirit to create a new piece from scratch, using Cageian
>>chance methods, for each performance?
>
>What is the Cage spirit?
>
>>Disclaimer: I'm a computer geek, not a musician, so please don't flame me. :-
>
>No flames, but if you don't want to stand up for what you
>write, don't send it in!
do i detect a cagian macho? ;-)
>
>--
><a href="http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jsaylor/home.html">
>jsaylor</a>
------------------------------
From: "Philip Naumann--M.M. Cello performance" <NAUMANN@Butler.EDU>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:58:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: chance operations--Chaos theory
>You are [perhaps] mistaking chance for randomness. Even
>though aleatoric [chance] processes are used by Cage
>explicitly, the pool from which a particular "event" is
>taken is not unlimited.
Is anyone out there familiar with the Chaos theory? (Forgive me if this is
a topic already discussed, I'm new here.) Well, for those who don't know,
it kind of goes like this.
Nothing is random, esp. as in nature, since there are boundries to that
randomness. I ask you for a random number between 1 and 100, and yet that
number is not random since it IS a number between 1 and 100. Hmmmm. I'm
having problems with explaining this. Bear with me for the moment.
Oh well. As the above author has written, chance is not unlimited.
Boundries are established through conceptual methods that contain within
them a fixed set of potential results. This is much like the 1 through 100
business. Unlike the above quote though, Chaos theory (in my very
limited knowledge of it) has as a major assumption the idea that
'randomness' does not really exist. There is always a boundary that can be
identified as surrounding the circumstances.
Now I know that this is a really wishy-washy presentation of ideas, but
I would appriciate any feed back on the subject anyone has.
(Sorry about spelling errors. It's my only weak subject . . .)
- Philip Naumann
M.M. candidate in
Violoncello performance
Butler University
Indianapolis, IN
------------------------------
From: Blank Frank <bfrank@macshack.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 00:54:24 +0100
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
Erik Seligman wrote:
[...]
>Why does anyone care about the score to a (chance-generated) Cage piece?
>
>Since he describes the methods he uses to create them, wouldn't it be much
>more in the Cage spirit to create a new piece from scratch, using Cageian
>chance methods, for each performance?
Makes sense to me, too. But I'm also a computer geek.
b
- --
Blank Frank <bfrank@macshack.demon.co.uk>
"Take my advice: don't listen to me." (Neil Young)
------------------------------
From: Erik Seligman <Erik_Seligman@BEEHIVE.MC.CS.CMU.EDU>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 15:17:11 -0500
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
> You are [perhaps] mistaking chance for randomness.
> the pool from which a particular "event" is
> taken is not unlimited.
I think you misunderstood what I'm saying...
I was merely claiming that since, for example, we (I think) have access to
the exact procedures that were used to create 27'10.554, why not use those
procedures to create a new piece for each performance? Why do we care about
the particular numbers on the faces of dice that Cage threw decades ago?
I would assert that any piece created by the same methods Cage used to generate
27'10.554 is, in some sense, the same piece.
> "I felt free to throw away anything I didn't like."
I wasn't aware that Cage allowed himself this freedom. Is this true of all
his "chance generated" pieces? If it is, of course, that would make my above
comment invalid.
---Erik
------------------------------
From: amar@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Amar Chaudhary)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:00:34 -0400
Subject: Re: chance operations--Chaos theory
>
>
>Is anyone out there familiar with the Chaos theory? (Forgive me if this is
>a topic already discussed, I'm new here.) Well, for those who don't know,
>it kind of goes like this.
>
>Nothing is random, esp. as in nature, since there are boundries to that
>randomness. I ask you for a random number between 1 and 100, and yet that
>number is not random since it IS a number between 1 and 100..
...
>Boundries are established through conceptual methods that contain within
>them a fixed set of potential results. This is much like the 1 through 100
>business. Unlike the above quote though, Chaos theory (in my very
>limited knowledge of it) has as a major assumption the idea that
>'randomness' does not really exist. There is always a boundary that can be
>identified as surrounding the circumstances.
>
To add a little bit more about Chaos Theory (like the previous author, I
am new here and apologize if this topic has alredy been discussed at great
length) ...
A chaotic system is completely deterministic (i.e., there is no chance
whatsoever involved) - if you run a chaotic system twice with the same exact
initial conditions, you will get the same result.
For example, most computer random number generators are chaotic and will
return the same sequence of numbers each time you run it with the same
starting number (seed).
Chaotic systems derive some of their usefulness from the fact that
they have precise deterministic definitions, but their behavior is
"unpredictable". That's what allows us to accept pseudo-random number
generators as random enough for most purposes...
The "boundary" of such a system can be found by finding the range of
values generated by a given initial condition, or by all initial conditions.
These boundaries may be themselves unpredictable, although they too will
be deterministic.
An interesting compositional idea from this property is
that a particular work can be associeted both with a process and with
a set of initial conditions, and be certain that we are getting the same
composition for each run of the process/conditions - of course, this
assumes that the composer's interpretation of the results is
"deterministic" :)
-Amar
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________ |
|\ Amar Chaudhary '95 | "Caution: May contain
- -----|-|-- ES Computing Assistant | occasional nut."
_|___|____ Yale University |
|) /\ amar@minerva.cis.yale.edu | - candy bar wrapper
- ----\/----
__________ http://www.cis.yale.edu/~amar/amar.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:30:08 EST
Subject: RE: 27'10.554
Michael Williams <williamsm@acad.winthrop.edu> said:
>There is no mention in the score of superimposing parts for ensemble
>performances, but I'm sure that must have been the case with the Cincinnati
>group (a trio).
In Kostelanetz's anthology JOHN CAGE: WRITER, in the section Notes on
Compositions II (which claims to be the notes from the scores but usually is
not), it says:
27'10.554" for a percusssionist (1956) is a graph of amplitude with respect
to four groups of percussion instruments: metal, wood, skin, and all others
(electronic devices, machines, whistles, etc.). The space of each page equals
one minute. The player chooses his own instruments which in a virtuoso
performance are as varied and numerous as possible. The rhythmic structure
and composiion means are those of 26'1.1499" for a String Player. This piece
may be segmented as structural points indicated by dotted lines and the
segments super-imposed in any way to provide duets, trios, etc. See below
for other uses for this material. It may also be performed as a recording
or with the aid of a recording.
So it does say that one can super-impose segments to provide ensembles.
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music
Librarian
Graduate Center
Music Division
City University of New York
The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
bkosovsky@nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions-------
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@sound.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 08:22:56 -0500
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
I just thought I'd weigh in on Erik's "Cagean spirit" idea -- I think
if someone really wants to write music with chance procedures it would
be a fine idea. It's pretty clear that Cage's compositional methods
were very complex, however, so to use his methods would be more
time consuming than it might initially appear. I write music on
occasion, but I am much happier talking about it and performing
it than composing it. I'm also interested in a lot of 20th
century music. Thus I really enjoy thinking (and writing, on
occasion) about Cage. I think it's facile to assume we know
what Cage intended to accomplish with his music. It's more
interesting to imagine that Cage's accomplishjments inter-
penetrated in a number of different (some unintentional
) directions, one of which are the scholars who have
started writing about his music. .
Also (this message for Joseph only) -- I'm getting duplicate
messages... :-)
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@sound.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 08:32:26 -0500
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
Erik writes:
> I was merely claiming that since, for example, we (I think) have access to
> the exact procedures that were used to create 27'10.554, why not use those
> procedures to create a new piece for each performance? Why do we care about
> the particular numbers on the faces of dice that Cage threw decades ago?
>
> I would assert that any piece created by the same methods Cage used to generate
> 27'10.554 is, in some sense, the same piece.
First, I don't think we have complete access to the compositional method
of these pieces. Some are documented very well (maybe most), but it
seems to me not all the sketch material is there... James Pritchett
finished the _Freeman Etudes_ based on Cage's notebooks, but even
there were questions in the compositional process that Cage had
written for which the answers were not apparent. Cage answered
some of these later, after Pritichett had completed his work,
but did not answer all of them (presumably because he couldn't
remember?) Anyway, there's a good article in _Perspectives of
New Music_ (Summer, 1994, pp. 264-ff) that explain it all better
than I can here.
And no, a recreation of 27'10.554 would not be the same piece, in any
sense. There are compositions in which the performer literally
makes the piece (the most famous is 0'00, in which the performer
executes a disciplined action with maximum amplification for
any duration of time), but the pieces that are precisely
notated were different. Now, Cage _did_ imagine the series
of pieces from which 27'.10.554 came to be a work in progress
which could be combined with other works in the series in
performance, but that's not quite the same thing as your
philosophical gambit implies.
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #9
***************************
Date sent: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:11:04 -0500
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #10
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Tuesday, 4 April 1995 Volume 01 : Number 010
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lather. Rinse. Repeat." <jwt@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 14:10:37 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Erik Seligman wrote:
>
> I was merely claiming that since, for example, we (I think) have access to
> the exact procedures that were used to create 27'10.554, why not use those
> procedures to create a new piece for each performance? Why do we care about
> the particular numbers on the faces of dice that Cage threw decades ago?
I think a great deal of this discussion can be boiled down to one
question: did John Cage, in composing 27'10.554 and/or simliar aleatoric
compositions, make arbitrary and personal musical decisions, _not_
resultant from the "official" procedures for constructing the piece?
Other similar questions can be raised on "metaphysical" grounds, however:
is there something "special" and unusual, perhaps spiritually resonant,
about the particular notes John Cage generated?
- --LRR
- -----------------------=============================::::::::::::::::::::::::::
jwt@dana.ucc.nau.edu
:::::::::::::::::::::::=============================-------------------------
------------------------------
From: "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" <mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 18:58:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: cage scores
Greetings!
Cage's scores let me in on his conceptual frame for any given
piece. It seems that what goes on INSIDE that frame, depending on the
work, is a snapshot, or a carefully circumscribed chaos.
It is interesting to me that Xenakis chose to calculate stochastic
processes so very thoroughly, while Cage's seem more implied.
Another interesting point, and request for input from others on this list:
Both Boulez and Cage were utilizing similar charts around 1950, but Cage
embraced silence as Boulez seemed to implode. Why is that?
I'm currently working on getting primary and secondary sources for a
diss. on silence, its ontological significance, etc. There is a
wonderful book by Dauenhauer (sp?) simply entitled "Silence" where
analyses are offered. One of my main contentions is that analysis is
aesthetic experience, and need not be simply a 'means'. Part of my
process now is composing silences, thinking about them, and trying to get
a handle on how other composers view them. Are their silences holes, or
utterances?
If the current century is about developing intensely personal voices via
unique handling of the various parameters of sound (dur. pitch. etc) then
I think it would follow that the resulting silences are intensely
personal as well. This idea is not as well-formed as I would like, and
so I am relating my thoughts to you for input, response, and, hopefully,
discourse.
Finally, I want to communicate my thanks for the existence of this list.
Best,
Scott McCoy
mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu
------------------------------
From: pnr@po.CWRU.Edu (Peter N. Risser)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 08:56:53 -0400
Subject: RE: 27'10.554
>In Kostelanetz's anthology JOHN CAGE: WRITER, in the section Notes on
>Compositions II (which claims to be the notes from the scores but usually is
>not), it says:
>
>27'10.554" for a percusssionist (1956) is a graph of amplitude with respect
>to four groups of percussion instruments: metal, wood, skin, and all others
>(electronic devices, machines, whistles, etc.). The space of each page equals
>one minute. The player chooses his own instruments which in a virtuoso
>performance are as varied and numerous as possible. The rhythmic structure
>and composiion means are those of 26'1.1499" for a String Player. This piece
>may be segmented as structural points indicated by dotted lines and the
>segments super-imposed in any way to provide duets, trios, etc. See below
>for other uses for this material. It may also be performed as a recording
>or with the aid of a recording.
>
>So it does say that one can super-impose segments to provide ensembles.
Strikes me then that maybe you can "superimpose" one segment to form an
ensemble of one? Maybe?
- --
I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep !
like my grandfather, ! Peter Risser
not screaming in terror ! pnr@po.cwru.edu
like his passengers. !
------------------------------
From: NELSONM@wabash.edu
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 1995 10:21:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: 27'10.554
On Sun, 2 Apr 1995, Peter N. Risser wrote:
>
> Strikes me then that maybe you can "superimpose" one segment to form an
> ensemble of one? Maybe?
>
YES, ABSOLUTELY.
Cage first discusses his welcoming of such superimpositions in
his performance instructions for the later Music for Piano sets,
essentially proclaiming that independent simultaneous performances of these
pieces
yield intrinsically indeterminate results. He welcomes and celebrates such
indeterminacy; and he intended the
time-length pieces -- including all superposed segments of the same piece
(such as the percussion piece) -- TO BE unpredictably superimposed upon one
another.
This approach closely prefigures his attraction to the 'circus
situations' he designed in the 1960s; these are environments so complex
as to defeat efforts to discursively
parse and analyze them. In resisting auditors' conceptual habits, these
pieces have the capacity to function as *koans*, and thus to induce the
preconceptual, non-discursive, intuitive _insight_ towards which Cage
hoped his music would lead listeners! As virtually every text he created
in the 1950s reveals, his music of this time period is _infused_ with Zen
Buddhist thought, and these pieces manifest his efforts to apply that
thought towards music composition.
------------------------------
From: NELSONM@wabash.edu
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 1995 10:39:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Erik Seligman wrote:
> I think you misunderstood what I'm saying...
> I was merely claiming that since, for example, we (I think) have access to
> the exact procedures that were used to create 27'10.554, why not use those
> procedures to create a new piece for each performance? Why do we care about
> the particular numbers on the faces of dice that Cage threw decades ago?
>
> I would assert that any piece created by the same methods Cage used to generate
> 27'10.554 is, in some sense, the same piece.
A related thought process led Cage to compose his 'transparency'
pieces: Fontana Mix, Cartridge Music, Fontana Mix, and the like. His
time-length pieces essentially comprise laboriously constructed, nearly
ego-immune, 'snapshots' of reality -- and by inscribing these pieces in
pen and ink, and encouraging multiple performances of them, Cage seemed
to realize that he was inappropriately _reifying_ a situation which was
constantly changing and intrinsically impermanent. With the transparency
pieces, he essentially designed a strategy with which _performers_ could
take the 'snapshots' -- indeed, he called these scores 'cameras with
which anyone could take a picture'. While performances of, say,
27'10.544" for a Percussionist might resemble one another (although the
instrumentation is largely left to the performer to determine, and Cage
does invite simultaneous, superposed performances of segments of the
score), performances of Variations I could be (and ought to be) wildly
different. Each performer may use the 'score' to generate a unique
continuity of sounds and silences. Each performance might be said, 'in
some sense,' to be the same piece -- but each would be utterly unique.
Put another way, it is almost as if Cage said to himself, why should I
commit myself to *this particular continuity* (that of any of the
time-length pieces), when, I now realize, I am interested in making my
music _commensurate with the totality of possibilities_. The time-length
pieces are not thus commensurate; Variations II *is*!
> > "I felt free to throw away anything I didn't like."
>
> I wasn't aware that Cage allowed himself this freedom. Is this true of all
> his "chance generated" pieces? If it is, of course, that would make my above
> comment invalid.
>
This is a much more complicated issue. See Cage's many comments
on *accepting* the results of his I Ching consultations (these are
scattered throughout Kostelanetz' "Conversing with Cage" and Cage's
interview with William Duckworth in "John Cage at Seventy-five"), where
he asserts that the freedom and fluency he aspires to cultivate are only
possible when one stymies one's ego and consistently _accepts_ a
chance-determined result.
------------------------------
From: "Fred E. Maus" <fem2x@darwin.clas.virginia.edu>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 95 13:04:00 EDT
Subject: chance and taste
Cage's use of taste to edit his Harvard lectures is not common
to all his chance compositions. There's a beautiful essay on
this by William Brooks, "Choice and change in Cage's recent
music," in _A John Cage Reader_. Brooks traces Cage's
development in terms of a consistent project of finding ways to
include "refused elements," which led him at one point to pure
chance procedures, later to inclusion of the element of choice
that he himself had refused.
It's useful to distinguish two levels at which choice might enter
into relation with change procedures. You might edit the
results of a chance procedure. Or, at a prior stage, you will
have to make decisions in setting up the framework for chance
operations, and at that stage you may exert some kind of
control over the range of possible outcomes. Brooks: "The point
is not, of course, that Cage wanted these two solos to have the
character they do (he didn't), but rather that he took
character to devise a procedure that would allow character to
emerge." Relatedly, Pauline Oliveros has said, about Cage's
renunciation of control through chance procedures: "there's
still control, because you've asked the right questions. If you
haven't asked the right questions, then you're probably going
to miss!" (Interview in current issue of _Perspectives of New
Music_, which also has a terrific conversation about Cage with
Christian Wolff.)
Marjorie Perloff, in an essay in her collection _Postmodern
Genres_, emphasizes the use of taste at an "editorial"
stage, following chance procedures. (I would quote but my copy
is out on loan, probably in England at the moment, I'm not sure.)
- --
Fred Everett Maus
Dept. phone (804) 924-3052
Department of Music
Home phone (804) 974-6039
University of Virginia
Charlottesville VA 22903
------------------------------
From: zampino@panix.com (Phil Z)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 12:13:51 +0100
Subject: Re: chance operations--Chaos theory
On Friday, March 31, 1995 amar@minerva.cis.yale.edu wrote:
> A chaotic system is completely deterministic (i.e., there is no chance
>whatsoever involved) - if you run a chaotic system twice with the same exact
>initial conditions, you will get the same result.
>For example, most computer random number generators are chaotic and will
>return the same sequence of numbers each time you run it with the same
>starting number (seed).
I'm curious what definition of chaos allows this level of rigidity. To me
what you're describing seems not a chaotic system at all. When programming
randomly the inherent predictability of pseudo-random numbers forces us to
add some chaos by choosing a new seed at random for each run; for example
by stripping a portions of a current timestamp to derive a new seed.
> Chaotic systems derive some of their usefulness from the fact that
>they have precise deterministic definitions, but their behavior is
>"unpredictable". That's what allows us to accept pseudo-random number
>generators as random enough for most purposes...
Random enough, but if your process will generate the same sequences each
time a program runs then most of us can't accept the pseudo-random number,
and are forced to find a way to prime the system with true randomness. The
acceptable part of a pseudo-random process is that the numbers generated
may not exhibit truly unpredictable behavior (ie, a 100% even spread
through a set of numbers), but comes close enough to emulate a random
process.
> The "boundary" of such a system can be found by finding the range of
>values generated by a given initial condition, or by all initial conditions.
>These boundaries may be themselves unpredictable, although they too will
>be deterministic.
>
> An interesting compositional idea from this property is
>that a particular work can be associeted both with a process and with
>a set of initial conditions, and be certain that we are getting the same
>composition for each run of the process/conditions - of course, this
>assumes that the composer's interpretation of the results is
>"deterministic" :)
Perhaps I have a problem in nomenclature: I assume the word chaos to mean
true random processes, or chance, but two posts have asserted determinism
in chaos. Is there another philosophically (or physically) agreed upon
definition of chaos that strips out chance as a truly random process?
I can understand applying this kind of process to a compositional method,
but bringing this back to Cage, did he work with deterministic processes in
this way? My impression was that when he worked with chance he was using
truly random processes. I'm curious whether Cage influenced the outcome of
chance, the way that Burrough's described his cut-ups, where he would
discard some word choices and direct the resulting prose to his own
artistic ends.
Phil Z
http://www.panix.com/~zampino/
------------------------------
From: Mete Ergenekon <e068211@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:33:32 +0400 (MEDT)
Subject: Re: chance operations--Chaos theory
The universe is rather probabilistic than determinist.You can not
determine future completely but change the event distribution by using
boundries.But in daily life time seems determinist.
------------------------------
From: pcastine@prz.tu-berlin.de (Peter Castine)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:06:28 +0200
Subject: Re: cage scores
Scott McCoy wrote:
> Another interesting point, and request for input from others on this list:
> Both Boulez and Cage were utilizing similar charts around 1950, but Cage
> embraced silence as Boulez seemed to implode. Why is that?
Boulez and Cage were good friends in the late forties and (IMS) into the
early fifties. At some time in the early 50s they had a falling out. I
believe their correspondence documents a disagreement on the role of chance
in music.
Joan Peyser's bibliography of Boulez (a book that needs to be taken with
large doses of saline material) suggests some additional, more intimate,
reasons for the falling out. I suspect that there was more involved than
just the question of chance, but I would be careful about espousing
Peyser's hypotheses.
Cheers,
Peter
- ---------- For a good time, http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/~pcastine ---------
Dr. Peter Castine | Grosse Potentaten und Regenten haben die
pcastine@prz.tu-berlin.de | Pflicht, sich um die freien Kuenste zu
Process Control Center | kuemmern. Zwar haben Privatleute Lust an der
Technical University Berlin | Musik und lieben sie, aber koennen sie nicht
| finanzieren. -- Martin Luther
------------------------------
From: John Saylor <jsaylor@MIT.EDU>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 1995 09:58:20 EDT
Subject: Re: 27'10.554
[x]
>I think a great deal of this discussion can be boiled down to one
>question: did John Cage, in composing 27'10.554 and/or simliar aleatoric
>compositions, make arbitrary and personal musical decisions, _not_
>resultant from the "official" procedures for constructing the piece?
I would take this and extend it, to say that the most important
thing about this score is NOT the fact that chance procedures were
used to create it. In the same way that the "rules" of voice
leading were NOT the most important thing about Bach's music, the
rules of chance [a nice phrase ...] are not the most important
thing about Cage's music.
In fact, I've often thought that the hullabaloo about chance
procedures that always seems to permeate any discussion of Cage's
music is a smoke screen. The real meaning [if you will] of the
music is beyond that. The techniques used to create the music are
important for conniseurs and others who wish to go deeply into it,
but the fact that the music is still around and being talked about
today is more about the music and what it "says" about our time
and our world, than it is about how the notes &c. were chosen.
>Other similar questions can be raised on "metaphysical" grounds, however:
>is there something "special" and unusual, perhaps spiritually resonant,
>about the particular notes John Cage generated?
Forget the notes, go to the music! And yes- to my ears, there is
something unusual and spiritually resonant about his music.
- --
<a href="http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jsaylor/home.html">
jsaylor</a>
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 95 21:48:51 -0400
Subject: 27' 10.554'' et al.
What follows is a somewhat lengthy discussion of 27' 10.554'' for a
Percussionist and the other pieces of its sort.
These pieces are the last ones to use Cage's rhythmic structures based
on the equivalence of the smaller and larger scales. In those structures
(first used in 1939 in First Construction (in Metal)) the whole is built
up of units of a fixed length. There are the same number of measures
within a unit as there are units within the whole, so that the same
proportions can be used to make phrases within each unit (small scale
structure) and sections within the whole (large scale structure). You
usually read of these pieces that their structure "consists of X units of
X measures," or is "X times X measures."
The structural boundaries that Cage refers to in the time-length pieces
(or "Ten Thousand Things", as I call them) are these equal-sized units.
The pieces can be broken at any of these unit boundaries. You can
start at any unit and play as many units as desired. I do not believe
that it would be correct, however, to permute units (and I don't think it
would be practical, either). The duets, trios, etc. are created by
multiple pieces played simultaneously, or by multiple people playing
different parts of the same piece. Turetzky did the latter, I believe; my
memory is that he overdubbed his performance of different parts of the
piece. An interesting aside: Cage's notes include a page that suggests
that he either envisioned or perhaps arranged a performance of the
string piece as a string quartet, with each player playing one-quarter of
the structural units.
My friend and colleague Robert Haskins suggests that playing
excerpts of the pieces would negate the structure; I disagree. In fact,
the pieces as they stand are only portions of the envisioned structure.
The gory details of the structure and its twisted history are explained in
my book (SHAMELESS PLUG) on pages 96-97, so I won't go into it
here. Suffice it to say that the structure is based on 100 units, but the
pieces consist of only 28 units apiece (the time differences among the
pieces come about because of tempo changes within each unit). Since
what we have are mere torsos, I see no problem with playing only
parts of the pieces (and I think that the performance notes can be read
in this fashion; I did it myself in a performance). Indeed, originally, I
think Cage planned on writing this "work-in-progress" one unit at a
time. The first installments are those six tiny string pieces (about one
minute each); five of them wound up in 26' 1.1499'' for a string
player, the other still rattles around by itself (59.5 seconds for a S.P.).
Someone else suggested that Cage did not mean for the precision of
the timing to be taken literally. Although I do believe that he would
have realized the impracticality of the notation, don't forget that this
was written after hearing David Tudor's performances of the Music of
Changes; Tudor's playing was extraordinary and I'm sure Cage had
full confidence that Tudor would play the music exactly as written,
right down to the thousandths of seconds. In fact, Tudor's copy of
the Music of Changes has such precise timings for every single
measure written in (this is what inspired Cage to abandon metrical
notation of the space-time notation of The Ten Thousand Things).
Incredible, you say; but it would be wrong to write off Tudor's ability
to do such things.
Finally, about the possibility of creating a new composition using
Cage's rules: in some cases it could be done, but not in most. In the
simplest pieces (such as the Music for Piano series) I think that, given
the rules, anyone else's versions would be pretty close to Cage's. In
the case of 27' for a percussionist, et al., I think there are still some
rules that are mysterious, and some places where choices were made,
albeit automatic ones (which paper imperfections to mark and how to
group them, for example). You start to get into gray areas here. The
important point is that the chance aspect of Cage's work is the least
interesting -- it's completely irrelevant, musically speaking. It's the
rules and choices that are what John Cage made, and hence are the
only conduit for his compositional activity. The things he left to
chance were the things that he figured did not matter to his
compositional vision.
BTW, as part of my dissertation research, I created "new" units for
26' for a string player using what I took to be Cage's rules. I wanted
to see if I was on the right track so I used the rules I had reconstructed;
if the results were similar to Cage's, I figured I had at least an
approximation of the historical truth.
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
http://www.music.princeton.edu:80/~jwp
------------------------------
From: Herb Levy <herb@eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:33:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: choice & chance
I've only recently gotten onto this list so I apologize if much of what I
have to say may seem redundant or, as it does to me, self-evident.
To a great extent the distinction between Cage's use of chance and his
use of choice is a false issue, at least in those pieces in which he
chose the notes. Even in those pieces that are extremely <random>, Cage
chose the manner in which various random activities were translated into
musical choices. Cage's various aleatoric pieces don't sound like each
other, or like other "chance" music by other composers, because the
interpretive system used to convert events to sounds is different in each
case.
I've said elsewhere, both on- and off-line, that this level of choice is a
key aspect of Cage's work. In a period where the vast majority of artists
are searching for the signature gesture that they can develop and refine
for an entire career, Cage is significant because he refused to hang onto
a stylistic schtick and beat it to death, to settle into a personal idiom
or cliche. Instead he constantly developed new methods for selecting and
ordering sound events.
I believe that if he had not done this, and instead had stuck with one of
his compositional strategies, that Cage would have had a greater tradition
within the field of more traditional modern classical music. I'm glad we
have him as a model of another way to operate.
Because he rarely used the same kind of structure more than a few times,
with the possible exception of the late time bracket pieces (though, these
too, are quite various), there is room for others to explore other
possibilities within some of his structural worlds without copying him.
A briefer way to describe this aspect of his work is to consider Cage as a
master composer of seminal works in many new genres and styles, most of
which have not been taken up by other composers. Many of his works are
great as such, but they are perhaps even greater as potential musical
languages.
- - Herb Levy
------------------------------
From: PaulT23@aol.com
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:51:58 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: 27'10.554
>music is beyond that. The techniques used to create the music are
>important for conniseurs and others who wish to go deeply into it,
>but the fact that the music is still around and being talked about
>today is more about the music and what it "says" about our time
>and our world, than it is about how the notes &c. were chosen.
Hear hear! This is definitely the way I feel. Furthermore it is just as true
of Schoenberg and Stockhausen ( or any great composer ). I get very tired of
people always discussing the process and never the end results. I suppose it
is more true of Schoenberg than Cage, for Schoenberg insisted that serial
techniques were merely a means to a greater artistic end. I also am bothered
that people divide themselves into camps over technique rather than what the
music actually sounds like. For example, if you ignore the density over time
factor, Boulez's Third Piano Sonata and say...Cages Etude Australes do not
sound that different. One is completely serial while one is "astronomically
random". They sound so similar, yet people will prefer one over the other for
purely intellectual - and I would dare to say non-musical - reasons.
>>Other similar questions can be raised on "metaphysical" grounds, however:
>>is there something "special" and unusual, perhaps spiritually resonant,
>>about the particular notes John Cage generated?
>Forget the notes, go to the music! And yes- to my ears, there is
>something unusual and spiritually resonant about his music.
Also agreed. If you believe that everything affects everything else, the fact
that one particular individual did something affects how it was done, no
matter how indirectly they went about. Particularly if they pursued such
means often enough for a pattern to be discerned. Reminds of a recent article
in WIRED concerning a study about the affect of mental powers on what should
be "random" processes. I think it may have been at Princeton ( somewhere
respectable, I must look it up ). They found that, depending upon the
individual, continued mental attention upon a mechanical or electronic
"random" process can generate a definite intentional variation ( I think
around .04% away from the normal "random" distribution ). So perhaps, John
was doomed to fail at composing non-intentionally no matter how hard he
tried.
- - Paul
- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: jsaylor@MIT.EDU (John Saylor)
Sender: owner-silence@bga.com
Reply-to: silence@bga.com
To: silence@bga.com
Date: 95-04-03 21:14:55 EDT
[x]
>I think a great deal of this discussion can be boiled down to one
>question: did John Cage, in composing 27'10.554 and/or simliar aleatoric
>compositions, make arbitrary and personal musical decisions, _not_
>resultant from the "official" procedures for constructing the piece?
I would take this and extend it, to say that the most important
thing about this score is NOT the fact that chance procedures were
used to create it. In the same way that the "rules" of voice
leading were NOT the most important thing about Bach's music, the
rules of chance [a nice phrase ...] are not the most important
thing about Cage's music.
In fact, I've often thought that the hullabaloo about chance
procedures that always seems to permeate any discussion of Cage's
music is a smoke screen. The real meaning [if you will] of the
music is beyond that. The techniques used to create the music are
important for conniseurs and others who wish to go deeply into it,
but the fact that the music is still around and being talked about
today is more about the music and what it "says" about our time
and our world, than it is about how the notes &c. were chosen.
>Other similar questions can be raised on "metaphysical" grounds, however:
>is there something "special" and unusual, perhaps spiritually resonant,
>about the particular notes John Cage generated?
Forget the notes, go to the music! And yes- to my ears, there is
something unusual and spiritually resonant about his music.
- --
<a href="http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jsaylor/home.html">
jsaylor</a>
------------------------------
From: Mark Kolmar <mkolmar@ccs.nslsilus.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:48:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: 27' 10.554'' et al.
On Mon, 3 Apr 1995, Jamey Pritchett wrote:
> The pieces can be broken at any of these unit boundaries. You can
> start at any unit and play as many units as desired. I do not believe
> that it would be correct, however, to permute units (and I don't think it
> would be practical, either). The duets, trios, etc. are created by
> multiple pieces played simultaneously, or by multiple people playing
> different parts of the same piece.
I am familiar with a great deal of Cage's works and the principles that
went into the composition of them, though I have not had the opportunity
to see the scores for these pieces. All the same, I am glad that my
hasty reply to the original question, talking out of the back of my head,
has turned out to be essentially correct.
HatART in Switzerland put out a 2CD set of the time pieces, including 45'
for a speaker. The pieces are played simulaneously. The two CDs contain
different performances. One is a live recording, with the text of 45' in
German.
> Someone else suggested that Cage did not mean for the precision of
> the timing to be taken literally. Although I do believe that he would
> have realized the impracticality of the notation, don't forget that this
> was written after hearing David Tudor's performances of the Music of
> Changes; Tudor's playing was extraordinary and I'm sure Cage had
> full confidence that Tudor would play the music exactly as written,
> right down to the thousandths of seconds.
Besides a fairly strong familiarity and (I hope) understanding of Cage's
philosphies and work, I come into this primarily as a composer and
listener, not as a performer. But it has always seemed to me that
graphical notation, and complex-to-convoluted conventional notation of
rhythm, is imprecise--often deliberately, otherwise unavoidably.
While a performer could reasonably play quarter notes within a tolerance
of 2 or 3 milliseconds, I don't find it reasonable in peformance of a
piece with complex rhythms notated graphically. With the exception of a
case such as Conlon Nancarrow's Studies for Player Piano, I don't believe
a composer could reasonably intend for the rhythms to be played quite so
exactly. In a piece where 1"=1 sec for instance, the human eye would able
to discern perhaps 0.01"=0.01 second, but maybe the performer's internal
sense of time could not. This becomes even more difficult for two or more
performers. And without the reference point of a pulse, such fine timing
would not be perceptible to the listener.
Morton Feldman often notated rhythms in unusual ways with the -intention-
that they would be performed inexactly, intuitively.
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #10
****************************
Date sent: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 12:02:15 -0500
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #11
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Friday, 7 April 1995 Volume 01 : Number 011
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Malcolm Humes <mal@emf.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:11:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cage info on the net?
Hi.
I just subscribed - I didn't earlier because I was afraid I wouldn't have
the bandwidth to participate or keep up (I've quit most of the mailing
lists I was on) but thought I should check in and see what's happening
here. I suspect I know a number of the subscribers here from other forums
and that some of you know me from various net contexts.
I'm rolling out a major revision of my Brian Eno Web pages and I'm
adding to those a number of tangential diversions -- so I'm in the
process of building a Cage pages and wanted to ask this list to point
me to any existing net resources on Cage. I'd love to think there's already
an existing and fairly comprehensive Cage Web zone somewhere but I have
doubts.
Are there archives for this list? the sub acknowledgement didn't mention
any. the page I found on the web has just the first 5 digests.
I'd like to pull together any and all Cage refernces I can dig up, so
please email me, mal@emf.net, with any such pointers.
Also I'd like to find lists of books by Cage and about Cage. I know
there's afew good on-line resources to find this sort of info but
don't know what those resources are or how to use them. If you can email
info on books by or about Cage I'd appreciate it.
regards,
Malcolm Humes
mal@emf.net
------------------------------
From: Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 04:44:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cage Book Reccomendations
in addition to Silence and A Year from Monday, two excellent collections
that have been mention quite a bit on this list, i'd like to draw
attention to a great book i'm reading from 1994 with a lot of Cage info
and a long interview called Extended Play, Sounding Off from John Cage
to Dr. Funkenstein (!) by John Corbet on Duke University Press. the
dedication is in memory of John Cage and Hal Russell and Sun Ra, and
features essays, reviews, and interviews on all aspects of avante garde
music from all different genre traditions (i.e. classical, jazz, rock,
dub, etc.) i find it very refreshing as i am working on a thesis paper
about experimental music through the 1990s and to many of the books i've
been researching from treat experimental music as something rising
entirely out of the classical tradition, a point of view i am definately
at odds with, as is Corbet. as i mentioned on the list before, i am doing
a weekly reading at midnight of "A Page of Cage" on my radio show What's
This Called? on KAOS 89.3 FM in Olympia featuring a page picked mostly by
random (though not always, much as he often worked with composing) from the
two collections of essays and lectures mentioned at the top of this post.
- - l.jim mcadams/ricardo wang co-music director kaos olympia 89.3 fm
(360-866-6000 ext. 6896)
On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Malcolm Humes wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I just subscribed - I didn't earlier because I was afraid I wouldn't have
> the bandwidth to participate or keep up (I've quit most of the mailing
> lists I was on) but thought I should check in and see what's happening
> here. I suspect I know a number of the subscribers here from other forums
> and that some of you know me from various net contexts.
>
> I'm rolling out a major revision of my Brian Eno Web pages and I'm
> adding to those a number of tangential diversions -- so I'm in the
> process of building a Cage pages and wanted to ask this list to point
> me to any existing net resources on Cage. I'd love to think there's already
> an existing and fairly comprehensive Cage Web zone somewhere but I have
> doubts.
>
> Are there archives for this list? the sub acknowledgement didn't mention
> any. the page I found on the web has just the first 5 digests.
>
> I'd like to pull together any and all Cage refernces I can dig up, so
> please email me, mal@emf.net, with any such pointers.
>
> Also I'd like to find lists of books by Cage and about Cage. I know
> there's afew good on-line resources to find this sort of info but
> don't know what those resources are or how to use them. If you can email
> info on books by or about Cage I'd appreciate it.
>
> regards,
>
> Malcolm Humes
> mal@emf.net
>
>
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 04:06:08 +0000
Subject: Shameless Self-Promotion (Score Online)
I've posted the score, text, and performance notes for a piece of
mine, "three body words (Spontaneous Harmony)", to the Web at
<http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/sponhtml.html/>. This is a shorter
version of much more complete notes (and a full text of twice the
length) which I hope to publish sometime later.
The piece is very much influenced by Cage, in its music, text, and
conceptual politics, and I hope it would be of interest to the
readers of this list.
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: tkgailey@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Terri K. Gailey)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 1995 05:54:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: 27'10.554
>>music is beyond that. The techniques used to create the music are
>>important for conniseurs and others who wish to go deeply into it,
>>but the fact that the music is still around and being talked about
>>today is more about the music and what it "says" about our time
>>and our world, than it is about how the notes &c. were chosen.
>
>Hear hear! This is definitely the way I feel. Furthermore it is just as true
>of Schoenberg and Stockhausen ( or any great composer ). I get very tired of
>people always discussing the process and never the end results. I suppose it
>is more true of Schoenberg than Cage, for Schoenberg insisted that serial
>techniques were merely a means to a greater artistic end. I also am bothered
>that people divide themselves into camps over technique rather than what the
>music actually sounds like. For example, if you ignore the density over time
>factor, Boulez's Third Piano Sonata and say...Cages Etude Australes do not
>sound that different. One is completely serial while one is "astronomically
>random". They sound so similar, yet people will prefer one over the other for
>purely intellectual - and I would dare to say non-musical - reasons.
It is often assumed that music theorists (I suspect we are the people
referred to above) are studying music just for the intellectual exercise.
That is not the case. What ultimately draws me to the "exercise" is an
intense desire to understand that which intrigues me. There is not one
theorist I personally know that doesn't admire and respect the artistic
essence of the music they study. I have heard some of Boulez' music, and I
know that his extremely controlled music sounds randomly generated. Is it
not interesting to examine both techniques knowing that there is an aural a
similarity?
>- Paul
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From: jsaylor@MIT.EDU (John Saylor)
>Sender: owner-silence@bga.com
>Reply-to: silence@bga.com
>To: silence@bga.com
>Date: 95-04-03 21:14:55 EDT
Terri Gailey
Graduate student - University of Texas School of Music
"Silence is golden. ...At least for a couple of minutes,
then your mind starts to go." (unknown author)
------------------------------
From: SOCRATES OF THE POST-MODERN AGE <NAUMANN@Butler.EDU>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 1995 13:32:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 0'0"
Does anyone know where I might be able to find a 'score' to this piece?
I'm very much interested in performing it on my Master's recital--or at
least having it on the program with some notes to accompany. This is a
cello recital in about 4 weeks. Any info, etc. would be greatly
appriciated.
- Philip
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@sound.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 21:24:23 -0400
Subject: Re: 0'0"
>From James Pritchett, _The Music of John Cage_ (Cambridge: Cambridge
University Press, 1993), p. 138.
..."the score for [_0'00_] consists of a single sentence: 'In a situation
provided with maximum amplification (no feedback), perform a disciplined
action.'"
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
From: SOCRATES OF THE POST-MODERN AGE <NAUMANN@Butler.EDU>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 00:40:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 0'0"
>From James Pritchett, _The Music of John Cage_ (Cambridge: Cambridge
>University Press, 1993), p. 138.
>..."the score for [_0'00_] consists of a single sentence: 'In a situation
>provided with maximum amplification (no feedback), perform a disciplined
>action.'"
>Rob Haskins
>Eastman School of Music
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't quite know what to make of this, i.e. how liberal should I be with
what the directions subjectively imply? Although I am programming this as
a conceptual gag, I am very serious about it as a piece of music and the
possibility of performing it.
Would it be something I should put on my recital as a title, with
accompanying program notes. Or, should it be something actually carried
out, like an action, etc. How could I do this if the timing is 0'00".
There isn't enough time to perform an action.
Could I just say that this 'idea' or piece encompasses all of the squeaks,
coughs, etc.-the 'background noise'-that occur at a recital?
This piece intrigues me since i'm not sure if it is conceptually possible
or valid. It denies musical existence and thus I validate it as a type of
'non-music'. Awwwh, this is just Dada for me. I just want to do it in the
'style' acceptable to Cage's ideas. Any other ideas greatly appriciated.
Much thanks,
- Philip Naumann
M of M candidate
Violoncello performance
------------------------------
From: harryk@rain.org (steve stewart)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:03:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: 27'10.554
>It is often assumed that music theorists (I suspect we are the people
>referred to above) are studying music just for the intellectual exercise.
>That is not the case. What ultimately draws me to the "exercise" is an
>intense desire to understand that which intrigues me.
let us take what michael ventura has said in the LA Village View March 31
as a comment to the above: "Only then could I finally get Henry Miller and
Sharkespeare and James Baldwin and Pablo Neruda dn Annne Sexton. Back east,
people put them in cages, conceptually--and, with all the deconstruction
and postmodern nonsense of the last 20 years, this has gotten wors. How did
Kafka put? "A cage went in search of a bird." .... catalogue and
categorize, if you could place a new thought on an old list...you have
learned."
an affirmation of the above > ....
- --harryk
------------------------------
From: Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 01:05:37 -0500
Subject: Re: 0'0"
>>>>> "Rob" == SOCRATES OF THE POST-MODERN AGE <NAUMANN@Butler.EDU> writes:
Rob> Although I am programming this as a conceptual gag, I am very
Rob> serious about it as a piece of music
Make up your mind!
Rob> Would it be something I should put on my recital as a title,
Rob> with accompanying program notes.
Why not?
Rob> How could I do this if the timing is 0'00". There isn't enough
Rob> time to perform an action.
I believe the 0'00" is meant to indicate indeterminate length, not
zero length.
Rob> Could I just say that this 'idea' or piece encompasses all of
Rob> the squeaks, coughs, etc.-the 'background noise'-that occur at a
Rob> recital?
Um, wouldn't all the squeaks and coughs be drowned out by the maximum
amplification?
Rob> I just want to do it in the 'style' acceptable to Cage's ideas.
Rob> Any other ideas greatly appriciated.
Why not just follow the score? It seems pretty simple to me. Of
course, you have to choose a "disciplined action", but you have only
to come up with one. You probably want the action to involve your
instrument, so that narrows it down even further.
== Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
------------------------------
From: Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 01:06:45 -0500
Subject: Re: 0'0"
My apologies for the misattribution in that last message (Rob instead
of Philip).
== Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
------------------------------
From: "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" <mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 02:40:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: some clarifications
"Cage had Zen, but I got rhythm." -- Gershwin, at a recent seance.
First, thanks to the many who have responded, favorably and unfavorably,
to my recent post on Cage scores and diss. interest. These responses are
quite valuable to me. I must confess that I occasionally think of the
act of dissertating on silence as being a rather absurd thing to do. As
of yet, I have not written poetry while in this frame of mind. I am
intrigued, however, by the compositional questions that may arise from
such an endeavor. There are presences in silences, and these are exciting.
I'm composing a piece now which has actually been the motivation for me
to expand my experiences of silence to include the act of analysis. I
had thought that my silences were going to do one thing, and they ended
up doing something else. I sat with a stopwatch and played it out in my
head a number of times, and then spent a few weeks rethinking and
recomposing the silences. Some were holes big enough to drive a truck
through. Others were excruciatingly long and made the sound events lose
focus. At that time, and still, I have made no evaluative judgment.
Rather, I've decided to let the results simmer for a while.
I decided to do some repeated listenings and analyses of some works:
Cage's Concerto for Prepared Piano, Ligeti's Cello Concerto (1st mvmt),
Tom Delio's anti-paysage, Xenakis' Evryali, Robert Morris' Ma, and
others, in order to see what, if anything, the silences were doing in
this music. I was as amazed by the varied treatment of silences as I was
by that of the sounds! I then returned to my piece with no definitive
solutions, but with some ideas as to how silence can function.
Thus, the decision to dissertate on silence is motivated not by a desire
to constrict and formalize, but to accumulate a number of contextual
applications of silence. I do not know yet what will emerge.
In response to Saylor's comments, I would like to clarify that I make no
binary distinction between Bach and Cage, Beethoven and Stockhausen,
etc., with regard to one having a more intensely personal voice than the
other. Of course, Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart each have their voices,
but it seems to me that the conventions within which these voices speak
are limited in comparison to those of this century; one obvious example
is the convention of closure. I believe it is possible to make the
observation that the number of different voices in this century is
substantially larger than those of the 18th and 19th. In fact, Saylor's
comments on technical innovations and serialism, with which I
enthusiastically agree, support this observation. What has emerged from
this plurality of systems is a plurality of voices, each with their own
expansion, invention, refinement, and/or rejection of conventions.
I have to partially disagree with the historical perspective argument,
however. Allow me to clarify, and head-off other possible binary
inferences, by stating that my disagreement is by no means a negation of
the value of historical perspective. Rather, it is my contention that
lexicographic time is not the only sort of time one may consider when
making observations about a body of work, in this case, 20th century
composition. There is also cumulative time. And it is probably the case
that observations which consider both sorts of time, rather than only one
at the exclusion of the other, are more meaningful. Historical
perspective, on its own, without cumulative time spent on particulars,
can lead to vacuous generalizations. Cumulative time, on its own, can
lead to myopic vacuums.
Again, thanks for your responses, references, and ideas!
Best,
Scott McCoy
mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu
------------------------------
From: slugfest@mercury.sfsu.edu (the mind boggles)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 00:43:25 -0700
Subject: 4'33" No.2 ( 0'00")
philip-
on your performance of 0'00" --
you can't possibly not do in a style acceptable to cage's ideas.
i believe cage would find any interpretation of the work
'good' or 'excellent'.
as far as duration, 4'33" (where there are no intentional sounds
made by the performer) is 3 movements totaling 4 minutes and
33 seconds, while 4'33" No. 2 (0'00") is not
specific as to the duration, but
the whole sheet Edition Peters #P06796 reads
0'00"
SOLO TO BE PERFORMED IN ANY WAY BY ANYONE
FOR YOKO ONO AND TOSHI ICHIYANAGI
TOKYO, OCT. 24, 1962
(signed) John Cage
IN A SITUATION PROVIDED WITH MAXIMUM AMPLIFICATION (NO FEEDBACK), PERFORM
A DISCIPLINED ACTION
WITH ANY INTERRUPTIONS.
FULFILLING IN WHOLE OR PART AN OBLIGATION TO OTHERS.
NO TWO PERFORMANCES TO BE OF THE SAME ACTION, NOR MAY THAT
ACTION BE THE PERFORMANCE OF A "MUSICAL" COMPOSTION.
NO ATTENTION TO BE GIVEN THE SITUATION (ELECTRONIC, MUSICAL,
THEATRICAL).
10-25-62
THE FIRST PERFORMANCE WAS THE WRITING OF THIS MANUSCRIPT (FIRST MARGINATION [CT
MARGINATION ONLY).
THIS IS 4'33" (NO.2) AND ALSO PT.3 OF A WORK OF WHICH
ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS IS PT.1.
COPYRIGHT C 1962 BY HENMAR PRESS INC., 373 PARK AVE. S., NEW YORK 16, N.Y.
anyway philip, for what it's worth...
i take the line "no attention to ..." to mean
that 0'00" shoulnt be performed live, however
talk nikkib
------------------------------
From: slugfest@mercury.sfsu.edu (the mind boggles)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 01:28:49 -0700
Subject: [none]
philip-
on your performance of 0'00" --
you can't possibly not do in a style acceptable to cage's ideas.
i believe cage would find any interpretation of the work
'good' or 'excellent'.
as far as duration, 4'33" (where there are no intentional sounds
made by the performer) is 3 movements totaling 4 minutes and
33 seconds, while 4'33" No. 2 (0'00") is not
specific as to the duration, but
the whole sheet Edition Peters #P06796 reads
0'00"
SOLO TO BE PERFORMED IN ANY WAY BY ANYONE
FOR YOKO ONO AND TOSHI ICHIYANAGI
TOKYO, OCT. 24, 1962
(signed) John Cage
IN A SITUATION PROVIDED WITH MAXIMUM AMPLIFICATION (NO FEEDBACK), PERFORM
A DISCIPLINED ACTION
WITH ANY INTERRUPTIONS.
FULFILLING IN WHOLE OR PART AN OBLIGATION TO OTHERS.
NO TWO PERFORMANCES TO BE OF THE SAME ACTION, NOR MAY THAT
ACTION BE THE PERFORMANCE OF A "MUSICAL" COMPOSTION.
NO ATTENTION TO BE GIVEN THE SITUATION (ELECTRONIC, MUSICAL,
THEATRICAL).
10-25-62
THE FIRST PERFORMANCE WAS THE WRITING OF THIS MANUSCRIPT (FIRST C
MARGINATION ONLY).
THIS IS 4'33" (NO.2) AND ALSO PT.3 OF A WORK OF WHICH
ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS IS PT.1.
COPYRIGHT C 1962 BY HENMAR PRESS INC., 373 PARK AVE. S., NEW YORK 16, N.Y.
have fun........
dennis
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@sound.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:08:15 -0400
Subject: Re: 0'0"
I guess I should have included more of the passage. At the premiere,
Cage sat at a desk writing letters, with the desk and chair amplified.
The 0'00 does not refer to duration. It can be any duration. But
I'm not sure why you want to do the piece if you are programming
it as a conceptual gag. If you want to do a piece acceptable to
Cage's ideas, maybe it would be better to do the _Etudes Boreales_
or the late piece for solo cello -- one that has more complete
notation, in other words. Thus you could get around the problem
you seem to have with "non-music."
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@sound.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:10:12 -0400
Subject: Re: 0'0"
Seth Tisue ... your references to Rob in your post are incorrect.
That post was written by Philip.
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 19:18:22 +0800
Subject: 0'0"
Philip Naumann is perplexed:
>
>>From James Pritchett, _The Music of John Cage_ (Cambridge: Cambridge
>>University Press, 1993), p. 138.
>
>>..."the score for [_0'00_] consists of a single sentence: 'In a situation
>>provided with maximum amplification (no feedback), perform a disciplined
>>action.'"
>
>>Rob Haskins
>>Eastman School of Music
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I don't quite know what to make of this, i.e. how liberal should I be with
>what the directions subjectively imply?
This may be one of those pieces which is best "learned" from the experiences of
other performances. The performance I remember best was given by Takehisa
Kosugi in Los Angeles, I believe at a festival honoring Cage's 75th birthday.
The "disciplined action" involved making ramen from one of those instant
packets. (This was pre-TAMPOPO.) Maximum amplification was provided by
attaching contact microphones to just about everything involved in the process.
The performance was delightful, even if it left many of us in the audience
running off for ramen. (The theater was in Little Tokyo, and there was at
least one good ramen house within walking distance.)
> Although I am programming this as
>a conceptual gag, I am very serious about it as a piece of music and the
>possibility of performing it.
>
While Kosugi's performance was definitely good-natured, I do not think that
anyone involved with that program regarded it "as a conceptual gag." Before
you undertake ANY performance, make sure your head is in the right place. (Of
course that is good advice for just about ANY music!)
>Would it be something I should put on my recital as a title, with
>accompanying program notes.
Kosugi's program notes did little more than describe the score, as I recall.
>
>Could I just say that this 'idea' or piece encompasses all of the squeaks,
>coughs, etc.-the 'background noise'-that occur at a recital?
>
Do you want to wire the entire space with sensitive microphones? That is
likely to be the only way you can get maximum amplification of those sounds.
Then you will have to worry about eliminating the feedback. That would be
quite a challenging performance! Perhaps you should go for it!
>This piece intrigues me since i'm not sure if it is conceptually possible
>or valid.
The fact that it has been faithfully performed in the past should establish
both possibility and validity.
> I just want to do it in the
>'style' acceptable to Cage's ideas.
All you have to do is follow the instructions. They are not that all
difficult. However, if you find them too challenging, perhaps you should
just abandon the idea.
Stephen W. Smoliar (smoliar@iss.nus.sg); Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace; Kent Ridge
SINGAPORE 0511; Tel: +65-772-3350; FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: Robert Haskins <rh@sound.esm.rochester.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:17:55 -0400
Subject: 0'00
Dennis writes:
> i believe cage would find any interpretation of the work
> 'good' or 'excellent'.
Maybe of this piece, but be careful. There's adequate documentation
that Cage did not think "anything goes" performances were good
or excellent (as for instance, the NY Phil performance of
_Atlas Eclipticalis_) and he worked a great deal with the people
who did the first performances of his music. I don't think
Cage would have wanted a performance of his music had no sense
of earnestness.
Rob Haskins
Eastman School of Music
------------------------------
From: Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 09:42:05 -0500
Subject: Re: 0'0"
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Haskins <rh@sound.esm.rochester.edu> writes:
Robert> Seth Tisue ... your references to Rob in your post are
Robert> incorrect. That post was written by Philip.
I sent out a correction immediately after the original message. Sorry
again.
== Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
------------------------------
From: "Lather. Rinse. Repeat." <jwt@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 09:07:18 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: 27'10.554
On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Terri K. Gailey wrote:
> It is often assumed that music theorists (I suspect we are the people
> referred to above) are studying music just for the intellectual exercise.
> That is not the case. What ultimately draws me to the "exercise" is an
> intense desire to understand that which intrigues me. There is not one
> theorist I personally know that doesn't admire and respect the artistic
> essence of the music they study.
I'm reminded of when I first discovered serial music -- in particular,
that of Babbitt. I _enjoyed_ it. I mean, I really _liked_ the way it
_sounded_. And at that point, I knew very little of serialism and nothing of
the combinatorial techniques which he used.
- --LRR
- -----------------------=============================::::::::::::::::::::::::::
jwt@dana.ucc.nau.edu
:::::::::::::::::::::::=============================-------------------------
------------------------------
From: williamsm@acad.winthrop.edu
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 12:58:07 -0400
Subject: Re: 4'33 No. 2 (o'oo)
WINTHROP UNIVERSITY Electronic Mail Message
Date: 07-Apr-1995 12:43pm EST
From: Michael Williams
WILLIAMSM
Dept: Music
Tel No: 323-2255
TO: Remote Addressee ( _SMTP%"silence@bga.com" )
Subject: RE: 4'33" No. 2 (o'oo")
>i believe cage would find any interpretation of the work 'good' or 'excellent'.
This reminds me of a story related to me by one of the members of Nexus (it may
have been Russell Hartenberger). Nexus was performing "Amores" with a guest
pianist (the 1st & last movements are for prepared piano - the two middle
movements are for percussion). After the pianist played the 1st movement, Nexus
played the 2nd, but before they could start the 3rd, the pianist (thinking they
were finished) began playing the last movement. John Cage was in the audience,
and when he saw what had happened, he came on stage and whispered to the pianist
that she needed to stop because the percussionists had another movement to play.
Interesting story.
Michael Williams
Winthrop University
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #11
****************************
Date sent: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 11:22:22 -0500
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #12
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Sunday, 9 April 1995 Volume 01 : Number 012
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mark Kolmar <mkolmar@ccs.nslsilus.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 19:23:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: silence
For more perspective on the function of silences, I will point you in the
direction of some of Morton Feldman's late works. Especially pieces like
"For Christian Wolff", "For Bunita Marcos" or "For Phillip Guston". Also
Luigi Nono's "Fragmente - Stille, and Diotima" and "_La Lontananza
Nostalgica Utopica Futura" (whose title I think I just butchered).
Particularly in the Feldman pieces (and I'd say especially in "For Bunita
Marcos") each note and each silence take on unusual importance. One's
ear becomes focused on tone color, light and shadow in individual events,
more than the relationships between sounds. Most music and most
musicians seem to be focused on the relationships between sounds more
than the sounds themselves.
On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, L Mccoy (GD 1999) wrote:
> such an endeavor. There are presences in silences, and these are exciting.
>
> had thought that my silences were going to do one thing, and they ended
> up doing something else. I sat with a stopwatch and played it out in my
> others, in order to see what, if anything, the silences were doing in
> this music. I was as amazed by the varied treatment of silences as I was
> by that of the sounds! I then returned to my piece with no definitive
> solutions, but with some ideas as to how silence can function.
>
> Thus, the decision to dissertate on silence is motivated not by a desire
> to constrict and formalize, but to accumulate a number of contextual
> applications of silence. I do not know yet what will emerge.
>
------------------------------
From: "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" <mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 21:35:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: on late Feldman
Many thanks to Mark Kolmar for the input on Feldman!
I know these works pretty well, and am quite fond on them. I think it
was listening to Feldman when I first felt that a sound could be tactile.
And it doesn't take long for these sounds to push one, in a physical way,
into a listening space so much different from those that stress
linearity.
Not that linearity is bad.
Question: Why did Feldman begin with traditional notation, go to
graphic, then back to traditional again? For a long time, I've sensed
Feldman's music to be mostly about decay; decay of various things, not
always IN the music. But I don't think that's quite accurate anymore.
Do you think he's trying to get a better hold on his silences?
I've written some on the earlier works (Last Pieces #1, and #3) and have
sketched out some ideas on Why Patterns?, but I haven't touched upon the
later music too much. On a superficial level, I suppose one could
characterize the increased scope of Feldman's music as being a means
towards de-emphasizing the function, conscious or unconscious, of memory.
Thoughts on this issue?
I'm not as familiar with the Nono pieces you've cited, so I'll go listen.
Thanks again!
Scott McCoy
mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 22:17:09 -0400
Subject: Feldman and notation
Scott McCoy wondered about why Feldman started with traditional notation,
went to graphic, then went back. This is a common misconception. If you
look at the music, you find that Feldman's use of notation was quite fluid: he
moved between "traditional" and "graphic" modes from one piece to the other.
Little-known fact: the last graph piece was written in the late 1960s, only
a few years before, say, Rothko Chapel.
My theory (current) is that Feldman didn't really care much about notation
per se, but was after something bigger. Specifically, I think he was
interested in what amounts to an indeterminate >conception< of music, which
may or may not have anything to do with notation.
I used to think that indeterminacy was a function of notation. After studying
Feldman, this seems extremely simplistic.
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 22:23:29 -0400
Subject: 0'00''
To the person thinking of doing a cello performance of 0' 00'' as a gag:
my professional advice is -- don't. The piece, if performed correctly,
is extraordinarily difficult. I performed it in a summer course I did
at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. In that case, I amplified the sound
of my setting up my notes, taped examples, and taking attendance (mikes on the
chair, floor, tables, etc.)
The difficult part of this is that you have to be unselfconscious about
performing the action; you must be (as much as possible) unaware of the
whole theatrical/musical situation you're in. You just do this thing
that you were going to do anyway. You just do it with contact mikes.
The piece has many levels and is quite interesting to study. I never
anticipated spending as much time on it as I did in my book; it was one
of the happier surprises of that project.
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
------------------------------
From: slugfest@mercury.sfsu.edu (Dennis Aman)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 00:38:12 -0700
Subject: [ ]
>> Dennis writes:
>> > i believe cage would find any interpretation of the work
>> > 'good' or 'excellent'.
>>
>> Maybe of this piece, but be careful. There's adequate documentation
>> that Cage did not think "anything goes" performances were good
>> or excellent (as for instance, the NY Phil performance of
>> _Atlas Eclipticalis_) and he worked a great deal with the people
>> who did the first performances of his music. I don't think
>> Cage would have wanted a performance of his music had no sense
>> of earnestness.
>>
>> Rob Haskins
>> Eastman School of Music
i agree with you rob.
dennis aman, sf
------------------------------
From: John Saylor <jsaylor@MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 10:56:51 EDT
Subject: Re: 0'0"
[x]
>I don't quite know what to make of this, i.e. how liberal should I be with
>what the directions subjectively imply? Although I am programming this as
>a conceptual gag, I am very serious about it as a piece of music and the
>possibility of performing it.
If you want to joke, sit on a whoppie cushion. If you don't want to
take the time to think about the score [Cage's instructions], there's
a lot of other music you can play.
- --
<a href="http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jsaylor/home.html">
jsaylor</a>
------------------------------
From: Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 1995 09:52:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Feldman and notation
>>>>> "Jamey" == Jamey Pritchett <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU> writes:
Jamey> My theory (current) is that Feldman didn't really care much
Jamey> about notation per se, but was after something bigger.
Jamey> Specifically, I think he was interested in what amounts to an
Jamey> indeterminate >conception< of music, which may or may not have
Jamey> anything to do with notation.
Have you read Feldman's essay in the booklet for Why
Patterns?/Crippled Symmetry (Hat Hut)?
"It is difficult to describe what characterizes notational imagery. If
we could suspend for just a moment all the reasons we think
distinguish one era from another--and briefly glance at the pages of
the last movement of the Hammerklavier, or a florid bar or two from
Chopin, or any work of Webern's--we will observe that these pages do
not visually resemble the music of their contemporaries. The degree
to which a music's notation is responsible for much of the composition
itself is one of history's best kept secrets... Many composers and
theorists will disagree with the almost hierarchical prominence I
attribute to the notation's effect on composition... But I feel
[notation] as a very strong voice, if not on stage, then off."
- Morton Feldman
It seems Feldman cared very much about notation per se, although not
in default of also being interested in "something bigger."
== Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
------------------------------
From: "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" <mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:08:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: notation and ind.
Jamey Pritchett's points on Feldman's use of notation is a very good one,
and I apologize for implying any over-generalizations about Feldman's
creative periods with regard to notational techniques.
I agree that Feldman seems to be reaching for a larger conception of
indeterminacy, and also that focus on notation may be misleading. Of
course, Feldman maintain a fluidity between graphic and traditional
notation. But, from what I have been able to see, this fluidity remains
on the larger scale. I don't know of individual pieces that incorporate
different kinds of notation within them.
I'm not sure, at any particular moment, what indeterminacy IS. Is
notation important? Well, yes, it always is if a composer is going to
transmit something; certainly not relegated to indeterminacy. In
addition, I don't think indeterminacy is a function of any one particular
thing (be it notation, etc.) Could it be that there is more breadth to
the issue than the concretized tools used to get the frame out to others?
I think so.
Also, I want to communicate my thanks to Mr. Pritchett for his recent
book, it is very helpful!
Scott McCoy
mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu
------------------------------
From: Douglas Cohen <douglas@tmn.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:23:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Feldman and notation
On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, Jamey Pritchett wrote:
>
> My theory (current) is that Feldman didn't really care much about notation
> per se, but was after something bigger. Specifically, I think he was
> interested in what amounts to an indeterminate >conception< of music, which
> may or may not have anything to do with notation.
>
I'd be interested to hear a bit more about why you feel this way. From
having worked closely with Morton (I was the last Varese Fellow that he
selected) I would say that notation was always extremely important to him.
Part of the reason is because of his involvement with Cage. Feldman
often told the story of showing his music to Cage and how Cage commented
that the score needed be copied much cleaner. Cage then gave Feldman
"composition lessons' of a sort where Cage copied out some of Feldman's
music for him.
Notation was an abstraction for Feldman, but it was also an important
medium by which he conveyed his ideas. Of primary concern was how he
heard the music and a secondary impetus would often be a metaphor of some
sort. Cage says somewhere in silence ("Lecture on Somenting" ?) that
Feldman's notated music is Feldman performing his own graphic music.
Feldman agreed with that. He heard specific things when he was using
graphic notation and was disappointed when the performers didn't hear them
too.
In the late pieces the notation (down to the page to page layout of the
score) is crucial to understanding what he was after.
Douglas Cohen
douglas@tmn.com
------------------------------
From: Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 10:34:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: 0'0"
i think that some of you on this list are taking yourselves and john cage
far too seriously. from what i have read about and of cage, and it has
been a fair amount lately, he did have a sense of humor, and it played a
part in much of his work. that doesn't mean he didn't care about his
pieces and how they were/are performed, he obviously did, and they should
be performed as he intended. however, what he intended may very well have
been a "gag" in several pieces. if you were to sit on a whoopee cushion
at maximum amplification without feedback while knitting, you would be
quite precisely performing 0'0" as it has been explained on this list. i
for one would enjoy seeing that, and couldn't help but think of it as a
gag. mr. saylor obviously wants to "take the time to think about the
score" or he wouldn't have posted a request for advice on this list. why
attack him for doing so? so he'll shut up and not ask next time? wouldn't
that be useful? thanks to all who have explained the pieces and various
ways it has been interpretted, i've found it very enlightening, and would
now like to attempt the piece some time myself. - l.jim
On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, John Saylor wrote:
>
> [x]
> >I don't quite know what to make of this, i.e. how liberal should I be with
> >what the directions subjectively imply? Although I am programming this as
> >a conceptual gag, I am very serious about it as a piece of music and the
> >possibility of performing it.
>
> If you want to joke, sit on a whoppie cushion. If you don't want to
> take the time to think about the score [Cage's instructions], there's
> a lot of other music you can play.
>
> --
> <a href="http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jsaylor/home.html">
> jsaylor</a>
>
------------------------------
From: harryk@rain.org (steve stewart)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 23:11:45 -0700
Subject: Re: what indeterminacy IS
Scott McCoy said:
>I'm not sure, at any particular moment, what indeterminacy IS. Is
>notation important? Well, yes, it always is if a composer is going to
>transmit something; certainly not relegated to indeterminacy. In
>addition, I don't think indeterminacy is a function of any one particular
>thing (be it notation, etc.) Could it be that there is more breadth to
>the issue than the concretized tools used to get the frame out to others?
>I think so.
I think so. I'm sure you have read the book by Marjorie Perloff, title "the
poetics of indeterminacy". I have found it a good source for other thoughts
when lost with the question myself.
- - harryk -- "music is not just music, it's an occasion for freedom"-
patience, patience, patience...
------------------------------
From: Mark Kolmar <mkolmar@ccs.nslsilus.org>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:55:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: on late Feldman
Actually, "Triadic Memories" makes this explicit. (see also: the essay
"Why Patterns?") He wrote that form was essentially a tool to aid memory,
and "Triadic Memories" turns this on its head by using form to confuse
memory.
The late works that I mentioned also operate on this level to some degree,
both because of their scale (length), and their scope which points the
listener toward the micro-world of color, light and shadow. Rather than
theme, exposition, recapitulation.
Something happens, then something happens, then something happens. It's
nearly impossible to recall the last thing that happened. Not that it
matters much. I find myself nudged into a state of "the now" and the
sounds that are -happening- ... not concerned with the sounds that passed
or with any expectation for the sounds that are yet to happen.
It is the continuity, cohesion and adherence to their own logic that give
the pieces form. They are too intuitive to be analyzed formally, or maybe
even to be adequately explained. So we are forced to put down the
textbooks that explain the music to us, and actually use our ears!
(sidenote: if this were the focus of music education, rather than
attempting to turn everything into formalized abstractions [and requiring
that music operate on such a formalized level] I might have gone beyond a
B.A. I believe I have learned more on my own than a M.A. program would
have taught me.)
A piece like Cage's "Cartridge Music" and many others ("Fifty-Eight" and
perhaps even most of his work aside from something like the Sonatas and
Interludes for Prepared Piano) also focus on -sound- over "form". 4'33"
is perhaps the most explicit and crystalized example, as there is no real
form (except perhaps the duration, and factors such as the performer
approaching and then leaving the instrument).
On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, L Mccoy (GD 1999) wrote:
> On a superficial level, I suppose one could
> characterize the increased scope of Feldman's music as being a means
> towards de-emphasizing the function, conscious or unconscious, of memory.
It's not so much that the scope increased (indeed the scope may have
shrunk or merely changed) but that the -scale- increased.
------------------------------
From: Mark Kolmar <mkolmar@ccs.nslsilus.org>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 13:26:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: indeterminacy/notation
Indeterminacy is all a matter of degree.
Look at the opening bars of Handel's "Messiah". The rhythms were not and
are not played strictly as written. The notation of this piece must be
put in a historical context first and then interpreted. This results in
one kind of indeterminacy.
Look at the score to Mahler's Symphony No. 3. The framework is fixed, but
the music that would be heard is dependent in many essential ways on the
collective and individual will(s) of the orchestra, the players and the
conductor.
Look at a graphical score in which distance -> time. Due to the limits
of the human eyes and hands, the timings can only be approximately
proportional to the distances.
No tempo is indicated in the score to Feldman's "Triadic Memories" (so far
as I know--I'll have to trust the liner notes).
In some pieces the performer can choose among a range of notes rather than
being instructed exactly which note to play.
In a piece whose score is text-only (e.g. 0'00") a wide variety of
interpretations are possible and to be expected. This brings to mind one
of Stockhausen's more unusual moments (whose title I cannot recall), in
which the entire score consists of instructions to the performer for how
to prepare to play the piece...standing still in solitude for a period of
days and then playing without thinking.
0'00" requires that no two performances be the same. I would argue that
no two performances of any piece can be the same. Nor can the same
performance of the same piece be heard the same way by two different
listeners.
This is all indeterminacy to varying degrees.
[Even playback of a tape introduces variables: speakers, speaker
placement, position of the listener...]
------------------------------
From: Ldaedalus@aol.com
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 16:09:50 -0400
Subject: nothing to say and saying it
> mr. saylor obviously wants to "take the time to think about the score"
> or he wouldn't have posted a request for advice on this list. why
> attack him for doing so? so he'll shut up and not ask next time?
> wouldn't that be useful? thanks to all who have explained the pieces
> and various ways it has been interpretted, i've found it very
> enlightening
I would like to second the spirit of this post. Recently someone was rebuked
for asking a naive question about the score of one of Cage's duration pieces.
That kind of behavior is certainly no way to encourage free dialogue and
exploration of this list's subject by all interested parties. Isn't the idea
to have a forum for discussing Cage, wherein questions can freely be asked?
That means all questions, even naive ones put forth by the curious
uninitiated. Or is this just another status game, where the point is always
to be right and to show it?
If people are going to be chastised for their naivete or inexperience and
punished for their curiosity, count me out. I've got better things to do,
like listen to Cage (yes, I know Cage didn't care for recordings, but I like
'em anyway).
*get yourself out of whatever cage you find yourself in*
I would like to thank the majority of this list's posters for sharing their
knowledge and experience in civil and unpompous ways. It's been most
enlightening and enjoyable. And much of it has been sparked by naive
queries...
Leo Daedalus
------------------------------
From: Jeremy Bernstein <SJB4590@OCVAXA.CC.OBERLIN.EDU>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 1995 18:40:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 0'0"
Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu> writes
> i think that some of you on this list are taking yourselves and john cage
> far too seriously. from what i have read about and of cage, and it has
> been a fair amount lately, he did have a sense of humor, and it played a
> part in much of his work. that doesn't mean he didn't care about his
> pieces and how they were/are performed, he obviously did, and they should
> be performed as he intended. however, what he intended may very well have
> been a "gag" in several pieces.
It certainly seems to me that no person would spend their lives working
diligently and with as much discipline as did John Cage unless they took their
work seriously. Sure, he had a sense of humor, but plenty of people take their
humor very seriously, and see it as a means toward a non-gag end. Cage's
pieces are definitely not one-liners -- not a single one I can think of. You
are right -- we should recognize that he was a composer with a sharp wit, and
appreciate this aspect of his work. But -- I think "gag" is not accurate.
jeremy
------------------------------
From: Malcolm Humes <mal@emf.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 17:02:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: nothing to say and saying it
well said...
- Malcolm
------------------------------
From: Vandroogenbroeck Joel <jvandroo@foreigner.staff.udg.mx>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 16:18:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: chance operations--Chaos theory
please remove from this list. Thanks
end
------------------------------
From: Myron Bennett <mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 17:57:35 -0400
Subject: More on Feldman and notation
While I cannot claim the expertise on Feldman that some have demonstrated
here, I'd like to contribute a small amount to the discussion of Feldman
and his notation.
The album notes quoted elsewhere in this discussion seem to come from
one of his essays (which are included in the wonderful book, MORTON
FELDMAN ESSAYS, Beginner Press, 1985), which led me to look through
the book again, to see if I could find something of relevance.
In the essay, Crippled Symmetry, (l981) he speaks of the influence that
rug patterns in particular, and his painter friends in general had upon
his conception, and wrote that he was most concerned about patterns.
He then gives examples from some of his works; WHY PATTERNS?, STRING
QUARTET, and SPRING OF CHOSROES, detailing (if I understand correctly)
how rhythmnic+e patterns seemingly create the illusion of lack of pattern,
if that makes sense.
e.g., in String Quartet: "The rhythmic structure of the block consists of
four uneven bar lengths with four permutaions that incorporate the
instrumentation of the quartet. ... This passage becomes rhythmically
obscured by the complicated nonpatterned syncopation that results. Only
after rehearsals, and by following the score, could I catch an individual
pattern as it crisscrossed from one instrument to another."
or in Spring of Chosroes, ".... The use of three pitches against five
uneven beats created, in my ears, a crippled symmetric constellation of
"eight" as I was writing it. Against the violin's pattern, the piano
has an independant rhythmic series of the same three pitches, played
in a symmetric unit of four equal beats to a measure. This functions as
still another deterrent to the natural propulsion of the quintuplet."
So, it would seem that a precise notation became very important to him.
Incidentally, since I haven't seen it mentioned yet in this list, I call
to your attention the book, NOTATIONS, which Cage brought out sometime
in the Sixties (I think ... I'm lousy at recalling years.) It contains,
with no explanations, samples of notation from a few hundred contemporary
composers, along with brief quotes from the composers, which are not
printed on the same page as the examples. A beautiful book, as are all
of John's publications.
Myron
"Until about ten years ago I wrote often about music. I no
longer do. The writing was usually polemical in content. In recent
years I do not want to argue with talent. I want to be thankful for
it regardless from where it comes."
--- Morton Feldman (1975)
------------------------------
From: Douglas Cohen <douglas@tmn.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 12:21:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: More on Feldman and notation
Thanks Myron, these are all good points. The "Crippled Symmetry" article
is probably Feldman's most significant one from the period where he began
to compose less for large orchestra and concentrated on chamber works of
extended duration. From 81 onward he wrote very little about music and
the best source of information we have are the lectures of his which have
been recorded.
19th century Asian carpets were, without a doubt, a major influence in his
long pieces. He had a love for carpets, the craftsmanship involved, the
fact that they were hand woven by nomadic tibeswomen, the perfection of
the necessary imperfections. Sometimes he would translate a detail from a
rug into a rhythmic pattern in a piece and often he would have the image
of a particular rug in mind throughout a composition. "Crippled Symmetry"
clearly shows this in its original publication in RES (RES 2 Autumn 81)
where a photograph of the rug in mention is included as is a photo of the
Pollack work he kept above his piano where he composed.
I didn't know about the Cage "Notations" book. That's a great find,
thanks for sharing it with us.
On Sat, 8 Apr 1995, Myron Bennett wrote:
> While I cannot claim the expertise on Feldman that some have demonstrated
> here, I'd like to contribute a small amount to the discussion of Feldman
> and his notation.
> The album notes quoted elsewhere in this discussion seem to come from
> one of his essays (which are included in the wonderful book, MORTON
> FELDMAN ESSAYS, Beginner Press, 1985), which led me to look through
> the book again, to see if I could find something of relevance.
> In the essay, Crippled Symmetry, (l981) he speaks of the influence that
> rug patterns in particular, and his painter friends in general had upon
> his conception, and wrote that he was most concerned about patterns.
> He then gives examples from some of his works; WHY PATTERNS?, STRING
> QUARTET, and SPRING OF CHOSROES, detailing (if I understand correctly)
> how rhythmnic+e patterns seemingly create the illusion of lack of pattern,
> if that makes sense.
> e.g., in String Quartet: "The rhythmic structure of the block consists of
> four uneven bar lengths with four permutaions that incorporate the
> instrumentation of the quartet. ... This passage becomes rhythmically
> obscured by the complicated nonpatterned syncopation that results. Only
> after rehearsals, and by following the score, could I catch an individual
> pattern as it crisscrossed from one instrument to another."
> or in Spring of Chosroes, ".... The use of three pitches against five
> uneven beats created, in my ears, a crippled symmetric constellation of
> "eight" as I was writing it. Against the violin's pattern, the piano
> has an independant rhythmic series of the same three pitches, played
> in a symmetric unit of four equal beats to a measure. This functions as
> still another deterrent to the natural propulsion of the quintuplet."
> So, it would seem that a precise notation became very important to him.
>
> Incidentally, since I haven't seen it mentioned yet in this list, I call
> to your attention the book, NOTATIONS, which Cage brought out sometime
> in the Sixties (I think ... I'm lousy at recalling years.) It contains,
> with no explanations, samples of notation from a few hundred contemporary
> composers, along with brief quotes from the composers, which are not
> printed on the same page as the examples. A beautiful book, as are all
> of John's publications.
>
> Myron
>
>
> "Until about ten years ago I wrote often about music. I no
> longer do. The writing was usually polemical in content. In recent
> years I do not want to argue with talent. I want to be thankful for
> it regardless from where it comes."
> --- Morton Feldman (1975)
>
>
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #12
****************************
Date sent: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 06:18:34 -0500
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #13
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Thursday, 13 April 1995 Volume 01 : Number 013
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 95 12:37:26 -0400
Subject: Feldman and notation
First, let me say that I misspoke (mis-typed?) when I said that Feldman
didn't care about notation. Blame it on a late hour and too much vino.
To clarify: I don't think that Feldman cared about notational innovation.
I don't think that he felt that the notation was the point of the piece.
Too often, I think, there is a tendency to see a graphically-notated piece
and say "aha! this piece is an experiment in notation." This is true
in some cases (Cage did this sort of thing), but with other composers
(and I think Feldman is certainly one of them) notational
innovation in and of itself is a red herring.
Another example: Alvin Lucier. Consider his "Music on a long thin wire,"
the score of which is a description of how to set up and operate the apparatus.
To talk about "indeterminacy" in this piece is to take a detour around
the piece itself, I think. The text was written after Lucier had performed
it a number of times and began to understand what the piece was going to be.
The instructions and the experience are as concrete as they can be;
nevertheless, you can read in any number of music textbooks about how this
sort of music is "conceptual" because "there is no score, just a text."
I took a Feldman "traditionally notated" piece and actually made a graph
transcription of it (as suggested by the Cage quote about Feldman playing
his own graph pieces). This was a very instructive exercise. In considering
the pitch dimension of the traditional piece, I had found myself thinking in
sort of graphic terms (five-middle, three-high, etc.). When I translated it
to the graph and then played the graph, I found myself thinking in specific
terms. I believe that Feldman's moving from one notation to another and
back again reveals that his music probably lies somewhere inbetween the
two, so that he was somewhat unsatisfied with both. As usual with Feldman,
I have no clue as to what to say about his music; just when you think you
know something, he pulls the rug (no doubt made by some Eurasian nomads) out
from under you.
Finally, a story: Feldman was sitting in on a rehearsal of one of his graph
pieces. He stopped the players, and complained about a violinist's execution
of one passage. "But it says to play three notes in the high register, and
that's what I played," the violinist objected. "Yes," Feldman replied, "but
play three notes that >I< like."
------------------------------
From: Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 22:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: delete if you hate semantics
since at this point we are discussing more the meaning of a word than the
music of john cage, i won't post anything more on the subject, however
the post below did send me to the dictionary and here are SOME of the
definitions i found of "gag":
to stop up the mouth of (someone) with a gag
to fasten open the jaws of, e.g. for surgery
to restrict the freedom of speech of (i DON'T think this one fits cage)
to retch or choke
to interpolate jokes into a script
something crammed into the mouth to prevent sound (perhaps to create
silence?)
a device to hold the mouth open, e.g. in dentistry
any supression of freedom of speech
the closure of debate in parliament
a joke, esp. one interpolated in a play
On Sat, 8 Apr 1995, Jeremy Bernstein wrote:
> Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu> writes
>
> > i think that some of you on this list are taking yourselves and john cage
> > far too seriously. from what i have read about and of cage, and it has
> > been a fair amount lately, he did have a sense of humor, and it played a
> > part in much of his work. that doesn't mean he didn't care about his
> > pieces and how they were/are performed, he obviously did, and they should
> > be performed as he intended. however, what he intended may very well have
> > been a "gag" in several pieces.
>
> It certainly seems to me that no person would spend their lives working
> diligently and with as much discipline as did John Cage unless they took their
> work seriously. Sure, he had a sense of humor, but plenty of people take their
> humor very seriously, and see it as a means toward a non-gag end. Cage's
> pieces are definitely not one-liners -- not a single one I can think of. You
> are right -- we should recognize that he was a composer with a sharp wit, and
> appreciate this aspect of his work. But -- I think "gag" is not accurate.
>
> jeremy
>
------------------------------
From: David P Miller <dpmiller@world.std.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 17:30:43 +0059 (EDT)
Subject: Cage and humor (was 0'0")
I'll put my toe in the water here, maybe get dragged into the deep
end. We'll see.
Cage's sense of humor is obvious and well-known. Certainly, he was not a
person who took himself or his work "too seriously." That is, he took his work
seriously *enough*.
Yes, you can probably produce a technically correct performance of 0'0" in
the service of a fart joke. But if I demur, and wonder why anyone
actually would want to spend their time and resources this way, will I be
accused of being too serious?
Years ago, when I was a grad student in theater, a group of
undergraduates proposed to do a production of Ionesco's _The Bald
Soprano_. When they mentioned that they wanted to do the play because
"it's so crazy you can do anything with it," my blood chilled a bit. It
was pretty certain that that's what they would do -- just *anything*.
Their proposal was denied. They probably thought the proposal panel took
itself too seriously.
It's clear that a lot of folks on the list are relatively new to Cage, or
at least not Cage scholars (I'm not new to Cage, but I'm not a Cage
scholar). I do hope that they will feel welcome, and not chased away. But
I will also ask -- what in Cage's *actual writings* would lead anyone to
believe that he had any interest in gags, or that he was a "what the
heck, anything goes" kind of a guy? Serious question.
That's all for now. I hope I don't take Cage too seriously. I hope I take
him seriously enough!
David Miller
dpmiller@world.std.com
------------------------------
From: Oswald Shane <soswald@keller.clarke.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 06:35:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: serious?
=09OK, OK. I am new to this list by about two weeks, and I have to=20
say that the discussion is starting to approach silly. I have been a=20
dedicated fan of Cage for some time, taken the time to watch his movies=20
and read his books. Cage appears to me to be an individule of great=20
presence and vague description. Trying to define the way he thinks is not=
=20
going to be an easy process.
=09As far as I can tell, Cage would like to see people express what=20
they feel is the most important aspect of his work, not sim[ply over=20
define. The score for 0=D500=D3, is straight forward. Do what you feel, aft=
er=20
all that is what music is, and Cage has provided us with the tools to=20
bypass western thought for just one muinet. Take advantage of the=20
opportunity.
------------------------------
From: Myron Bennett <mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:01:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Cage and humor
I'll second David Miller's post, and add this. Thirty or more years ago
was my first chance to attend a performance of Cage's works, a short drive
North of Cincinnati, at Antioch College. It was Cage and Tudor.
There was, of course, the usual q&a session afterwards, with the usual
indignant questions from, shall I say, the less adventurous among the
audience. (Off subject, but I shall always remember one exchange. A
woman who obviously resented what she heard as not her idea of music, asked,
"Why should I listen to your music?" to which John replied, "Madam, it is
of no concern to ME whether or not you listen. But it is of paramount
importance to YOU." (I paraphrase, of course ... I did not write it down.)
This was a few years before I got a chance to know John, and I decided to
ask my own question - "What part does humor play in your work?"
John thought for a second or two, paused, and said, "Arnold Schoenberg, my
teacher, believed that the world was a vale of tears, to be suffered through.
I hold the opposite opinion." (See disclaimer of total accuracy above.)
On a slightly related note, it was sometimes painful to watch John as he
watched performances of his works by Charlotte Moorman, whose ideas of his
works often included what I considered "gags" or at least misunderstandings.
Myron
- --
Myron Bennett mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net or mbennett@iglou.com
"Until about ten years ago I wrote often about music. I no
longer do. The writing was usually polemical in content. In recent
years I do not want to argue with talent. I want to be thankful for
it regardless from where it comes."
--- Morton Feldman (1975)
------------------------------
From: NELSONM@wabash.edu
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:45:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Cage and humor (was 0'0")
> But
> I will also ask -- what in Cage's *actual writings* would lead anyone to
> believe that he had any interest in gags, or that he was a "what the
> heck, anything goes" kind of a guy? Serious question.
>
Two Cageian statements seem apt here:
PERMISSION GRANTED. BUT NOT TO DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. (from A
Year from Monday)
When I say anthing can happen, that doesn't mean anything I WANT
to have happen.... (I don't have source with me.)
Discipline, including performer discipline, was very important to Cage.
------------------------------
From: Marjorie Perloff <0004221898@mcimail.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 95 23:35 EST
Subject: Re: Indeterminacy
Just back from lecture tour for Phi Beta Kappa and found your
message. I'm delighted about your "page of Cage' segment. When
was or will be my Indeterminacy on?
Best regards, Marjorie P.
------------------------------
From: Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 16:19:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cage and humor
if it won't be considered too silly, i'd really like to know more about
these performances by moorman, why they were "gags" and what cage's
reaction was. i find this interesting and on topic, and i subscribed to
this list to learn things.
------------------------------
From: Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 16:49:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Indeterminacy
can't say for sure because i pick them at random mostly (but not entirely...)
On Sun, 9 Apr 1995, Marjorie Perloff wrote:
> Just back from lecture tour for Phi Beta Kappa and found your
> message. I'm delighted about your "page of Cage' segment. When
> was or will be my Indeterminacy on?
> Best regards, Marjorie P.
>
>
------------------------------
From: Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 16:13:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cage and humor (was 0'0")
you are putting words in my mouth. i never said that cage had an attitude
of "anything goes", what in my actual writing makes you think that?
obviously he is one of the most disciplined artists of the century. the
reason one might want to do a technically correct performance of 0'0"
using a whoopee cushion (whether or not it would then be "in the service
of a fart joke" would be open to interpretation) is that someone else
posted an attack at someone asking a question on this list telling him to
"sit on a whoopee cushion". i never said that cage took himself or his
work "too seriously", again you have misquoted me, i said that some
people on this list take themselves (my primary point) and john cage too
seriously... i.e. they don't think his work could possibly be performed
as a "gag" without losing it's entire intergity, i still disagree, and to
me a performance of cooking ramen presented as a musical piece is both
very amusing - and brilliant. - l.jim/rwang
On Sun, 9 Apr 1995, David P Miller wrote:
> I'll put my toe in the water here, maybe get dragged into the deep
> end. We'll see.
>
> Cage's sense of humor is obvious and well-known. Certainly, he was not a
> person who took himself or his work "too seriously." That is, he took his work
> seriously *enough*.
>
> Yes, you can probably produce a technically correct performance of 0'0" in
> the service of a fart joke. But if I demur, and wonder why anyone
> actually would want to spend their time and resources this way, will I be
> accused of being too serious?
>
> Years ago, when I was a grad student in theater, a group of
> undergraduates proposed to do a production of Ionesco's _The Bald
> Soprano_. When they mentioned that they wanted to do the play because
> "it's so crazy you can do anything with it," my blood chilled a bit. It
> was pretty certain that that's what they would do -- just *anything*.
> Their proposal was denied. They probably thought the proposal panel took
> itself too seriously.
>
> It's clear that a lot of folks on the list are relatively new to Cage, or
> at least not Cage scholars (I'm not new to Cage, but I'm not a Cage
> scholar). I do hope that they will feel welcome, and not chased away. But
> I will also ask -- what in Cage's *actual writings* would lead anyone to
> believe that he had any interest in gags, or that he was a "what the
> heck, anything goes" kind of a guy? Serious question.
>
> That's all for now. I hope I don't take Cage too seriously. I hope I take
> him seriously enough!
>
> David Miller
> dpmiller@world.std.com
>
------------------------------
From: "DR. BENWAY'S LAB ASSISTANT" <NAUMANN@Butler.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:26:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Cage and humor
I saw an exhibition of Nam June Paik's work at the Indianapolis Art Museum
the other day entitled: The Electronic Super Highway. It was absolutely
incredible--computer generated video over multiple t.v. monitors. Very,
very cool!
Well, since Nam and John were friends the exibit included some
retrospective displays of their combined work. Moorman(?) was discussed,
plus a video incorporating her t.v. bra/cello performance was displayed.
Now, honestly, as a cellist I find this very amusing. It would be like
me--a male-- playing naked with the cello strategically placed, if you know
what I mean . . .
Anyways, if I were to play 0'00" here in conservative Indiana people would
either laugh or boo, and most importantly, would not 'get the point'. No
matter how serious the performance it would be the same. So, if y'all
don't like the 'gag' (what a horrible word) approach I can understand.
After all, I think that most people critical of the whoopie cushion style
are just afraid of me being too pretentious. Yeah, pretentious--that is a
big no-no with Cage as I see it. Humor is one thing, but this is another.
Seriousness is only a matter of perspective anyways . . .
Philip Naumann
M of M on cello candidate
&
Royal pain-in-the-ass
------------------------------
From: Mark_Nevins-CSCM06@email.mot.com
Date: 12 Apr 95 07:23:26 -0600
Subject: RE: Cage Book Reccomendations
>a great book i'm reading from 1994 with a lot of Cage info
>and a long interview called Extended Play, Sounding Off from John Cage
>to Dr. Funkenstein (!) by John Corbet on Duke University Press.
Do you or anyone have the address or phone # for Duke University Press?
Mark
cscm06@email.mot.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
To: silence@bga.com@INTERNET
Cc: silence@bga.com@INTERNET
From: silence@bga.com@INTERNET on Wed, Apr 5, 1995 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: Cage Book Reccomendations
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Precedence: bulk
in addition to Silence and A Year from Monday, two excellent collections
that have been mention quite a bit on this list, i'd like to draw
attention to a great book i'm reading from 1994 with a lot of Cage info
and a long interview called Extended Play, Sounding Off from John Cage
to Dr. Funkenstein (!) by John Corbet on Duke University Press. the
dedication is in memory of John Cage and Hal Russell and Sun Ra, and
features essays, reviews, and interviews on all aspects of avante garde
music from all different genre traditions (i.e. classical, jazz, rock,
dub, etc.) i find it very refreshing as i am working on a thesis paper
about experimental music through the 1990s and to many of the books i've
been researching from treat experimental music as something rising
entirely out of the classical tradition, a point of view i am definately
at odds with, as is Corbet. as i mentioned on the list before, i am doing
a weekly reading at midnight of "A Page of Cage" on my radio show What's
This Called? on KAOS 89.3 FM in Olympia featuring a page picked mostly by
random (though not always, much as he often worked with composing) from the
two collections of essays and lectures mentioned at the top of this post.
- - l.jim mcadams/ricardo wang co-music director kaos olympia 89.3 fm
(360-866-6000 ext. 6896)
On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Malcolm Humes wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I just subscribed - I didn't earlier because I was afraid I wouldn't have
> the bandwidth to participate or keep up (I've quit most of the mailing
> lists I was on) but thought I should check in and see what's happening
> here. I suspect I know a number of the subscribers here from other forums
> and that some of you know me from various net contexts.
>
> I'm rolling out a major revision of my Brian Eno Web pages and I'm
> adding to those a number of tangential diversions -- so I'm in the
> process of building a Cage pages and wanted to ask this list to point
> me to any existing net resources on Cage. I'd love to think there's already
> an existing and fairly comprehensive Cage Web zone somewhere but I have
> doubts.
>
> Are there archives for this list? the sub acknowledgement didn't mention
> any. the page I found on the web has just the first 5 digests.
>
> I'd like to pull together any and all Cage refernces I can dig up, so
> please email me, mal@emf.net, with any such pointers.
>
> Also I'd like to find lists of books by Cage and about Cage. I know
> there's afew good on-line resources to find this sort of info but
> don't know what those resources are or how to use them. If you can email
> info on books by or about Cage I'd appreciate it.
>
> regards,
>
> Malcolm Humes
> mal@emf.net
>
>
------------------------------
From: Myron Bennett <mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:02:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Cage and humor
rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu (Lennon McAdams III) wrote:
>if it won't be considered too silly, i'd really like to know more about
>these performances by moorman, why they were "gags" and what cage's
>reaction was. i find this interesting and on topic, and i subscribed to
>this list to learn things.
I assume that this was written in response to my assertion that, "it was
painful to watch John watching" a Moorman performance, or words to that
effect. And it is understandable that you would infer that I meant that
Charlotte Moorman was making "gags." I didn't quite mean to imply that.
Ok. For those who might not know, Moorman was (is?) a cellist who
achieved a fame (or notoriety) beyond the avant garde scene, due to her
occasional topless recitals. (Which does not mean she took the top off
of her cello.)
In my opinion, and the opinion of some others close to Cage, she approached
a Cage piece more as a vehicle for her to make her own creation.
Now as to my assertion about John's reaction (which is based on only
one occasion when I attended a performance) - again, it is my opinion
that John did not wholly approve of her ideas. Yet, being himself, both
because of his philosophy at the time, and because of his "sunny
disposition," he would not tell her of his disapproval, nor ask her to
change anything. And my impressions were reinforced by some of the
other musicians who often worked with Cage.
You ask what Cage's reaction was. I can only say he looked uncomfortable.
I'm sorry that I can't give you more details about what Moorman did, since
I have happily forgotten them. (I would be happy, though, to describe
Nam June Paik's performance of his own work, PER ARCO from the same concert;
it was wondrous.)
Hope this has helped you some in your ambition to learn things, in spite
of the lack of verifiable, footnotable details.
- --
Myron Bennett mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net or mbennett@iglou.com
"Until about ten years ago I wrote often about music. I no
longer do. The writing was usually polemical in content. In recent
years I do not want to argue with talent. I want to be thankful for
it regardless from where it comes."
--- Morton Feldman (1975)
------------------------------
From: Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 02:18:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: Cage Book Reccomendations
the address in the book is Publications, 17 Pudsey Rd., Cornholme,
Todmoren, Lancs., UK. - rwang
On 12 Apr 1995 Mark_Nevins-CSCM06@email.mot.com wrote:
>
> >a great book i'm reading from 1994 with a lot of Cage info
> >and a long interview called Extended Play, Sounding Off from John Cage
> >to Dr. Funkenstein (!) by John Corbet on Duke University Press.
>
> Do you or anyone have the address or phone # for Duke University Press?
> Mark
> cscm06@email.mot.com
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> To: silence@bga.com@INTERNET
> Cc: silence@bga.com@INTERNET
> From: silence@bga.com@INTERNET on Wed, Apr 5, 1995 8:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Cage Book Reccomendations
>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Precedence: bulk
>
> in addition to Silence and A Year from Monday, two excellent collections
> that have been mention quite a bit on this list, i'd like to draw
> attention to a great book i'm reading from 1994 with a lot of Cage info
> and a long interview called Extended Play, Sounding Off from John Cage
> to Dr. Funkenstein (!) by John Corbet on Duke University Press. the
> dedication is in memory of John Cage and Hal Russell and Sun Ra, and
> features essays, reviews, and interviews on all aspects of avante garde
> music from all different genre traditions (i.e. classical, jazz, rock,
> dub, etc.) i find it very refreshing as i am working on a thesis paper
> about experimental music through the 1990s and to many of the books i've
> been researching from treat experimental music as something rising
> entirely out of the classical tradition, a point of view i am definately
> at odds with, as is Corbet. as i mentioned on the list before, i am doing
> a weekly reading at midnight of "A Page of Cage" on my radio show What's
> This Called? on KAOS 89.3 FM in Olympia featuring a page picked mostly by
> random (though not always, much as he often worked with composing) from the
> two collections of essays and lectures mentioned at the top of this post.
>
> - l.jim mcadams/ricardo wang co-music director kaos olympia 89.3 fm
> (360-866-6000 ext. 6896)
>
> On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Malcolm Humes wrote:
>
> > Hi.
> >
> > I just subscribed - I didn't earlier because I was afraid I wouldn't have
> > the bandwidth to participate or keep up (I've quit most of the mailing
> > lists I was on) but thought I should check in and see what's happening
> > here. I suspect I know a number of the subscribers here from other forums
> > and that some of you know me from various net contexts.
> >
> > I'm rolling out a major revision of my Brian Eno Web pages and I'm
> > adding to those a number of tangential diversions -- so I'm in the
> > process of building a Cage pages and wanted to ask this list to point
> > me to any existing net resources on Cage. I'd love to think there's already
> > an existing and fairly comprehensive Cage Web zone somewhere but I have
> > doubts.
> >
> > Are there archives for this list? the sub acknowledgement didn't mention
> > any. the page I found on the web has just the first 5 digests.
> >
> > I'd like to pull together any and all Cage refernces I can dig up, so
> > please email me, mal@emf.net, with any such pointers.
> >
> > Also I'd like to find lists of books by Cage and about Cage. I know
> > there's afew good on-line resources to find this sort of info but
> > don't know what those resources are or how to use them. If you can email
> > info on books by or about Cage I'd appreciate it.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Malcolm Humes
> > mal@emf.net
> >
> >
>
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 19:20:08 +0800
Subject: Cage and humor
I want to use Myron Bennett's latest contribution as a point of departure for
several personal observations:
> For those who might not know, Moorman was (is?) a cellist who
>achieved a fame (or notoriety) beyond the avant garde scene, due to her
>occasional topless recitals. (Which does not mean she took the top off
>of her cello.)
>In my opinion, and the opinion of some others close to Cage, she approached
>a Cage piece more as a vehicle for her to make her own creation.
There are a couple of additional facts I would like to throw into the pot here.
One is that Charlotte Moorman did a lot of collaborating with Nam June Paik. I
remember interviewing Paik once in an apartment he was occupying in Central
Square (Cambridge, Massachusetts) which gave a whole new layer of semantics
to words like "clutter" and "disorganization." While he was rummaging around
through all the objects which constituted this environment, he said, in an
off-hand manner, "I am really very sloppy in everything I do." I think this
was his way of saying that he did not always see a need to follow someone
else's instructions just because he had decided for perform that someone
else's work. I think there is some extent to which Moorman developed the
same aesthetic, perhaps as a result of her work with Paik (or perhaps they
came together because they shared this particular attitude).
Now I have also seen Moorman perform and even had an occasion to meet her once.
What struck me about her was the same thing that struck me when I first met
Cage: She was nothing if not sincere. It was a sincerity strong enough to
transcend any intellectual theory of aesthetics, no matter how well-grounded
that theory was in logic or philosophy. Like Cage, Moorman was very serious
about what she did when she was doing it; and, also like Cage, she could then
see the humor in a retrospective view of what she did. Personally, I much more
enjoy Charlotte Moorman than I do someone like Laurie Anderson, who makes such
a show of jerking around the attitudes she KNOWS you are forming about her that
she just gets very tiresome very quickly. Moorman often strained the
attention, but the exertion was often rewarded with interesting forms
of gratification.
>Now as to my assertion about John's reaction (which is based on only
>one occasion when I attended a performance) - again, it is my opinion
>that John did not wholly approve of her ideas.
There are lots of things of which John may not have approved. For all I know,
he may have been a bit conservative on matters such as public nudity. (I was
rather amused to discover Merce Cunningham's interest in the outrageous. He
used to love the work of the Playhouse of the Ridiculous. I remember going
to see HEAVEN GRAND IN AMBER ORBIT on his advice. However, he never "cut
loose" that way in his own work. For all I know, that was out of respect
to John's less adventurous attitudes towards what you could do on stage.)
> Yet, being himself, both
>because of his philosophy at the time, and because of his "sunny
>disposition," he would not tell her of his disapproval, nor ask her to
>change anything.
Yes, it was only late in his life that Cage would actually think about
articulating discontent. (There WAS of course his great
where-were-you-when-I-needed-you lecture at a Duchamp retrospective
at the Philadelphia Museum of Art . . . in 1974, I think.)
The first time I actually drove out to Stony Point, I happened
to arrived shortly before a young man who had come to show Cage
his recent compositions. The young man may best be described as
an acolyte of SILENCE. Each of his "compositions" was a typewritten
page (usually pretty sloppy . . . he should have been approaching Paik!)
for which he then gave a lengthy verbal explanation, at least 50% of which
was quotations from Cage's writings. This went on for several hours with
Cage just patiently nodding at each of the young man's remarks. When the
young man finally went on his way, Cage sighed and said (to Sari Dines, with
whom I was staying, and me), "I wanted to tell him to shut up and go away, but
my philosophy wouldn't let me!" As I recall, than sentence was not accompanied
by the usual Cage "sunny disposition" smile. This had clearly been a very
tiring afternoon for him, and I wondered how many of them he had to endure
each year.
>I would be happy, though, to describe
>Nam June Paik's performance of his own work, PER ARCO from the same concert;
>it was wondrous.
For someone who claimed to be so sloppy, Paik could be incredibly intense.
According to Alvin Lucier, Paik is the only man to ever REALLY scare Cage.
The event was Paik's solo performance of a theater piece during which, at
one point, he brandished a pair of scissors VERY menacingly at Cage. (Anyone
who has seen Paik know that he can get that look in his eye.) Ultimately, all
Paik did was snip off the lower portion of Cage's tie; but Lucier claims that,
for all the calming philosophy of Buddhism, Cage was in a sweat and close to
panic. (This was also the performance where Paik later left the hall, leaving
the audience just sitting there. About ten minutes later he called the pay
phone in the lobby and told the person who answered it to inform the audience
that the performance was over. Those were the days!)
- ----------------
Stephen W. Smoliar (smoliar@iss.nus.sg); Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace; Kent Ridge
SINGAPORE 0511; Tel: +65-772-3350; FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #13
****************************
Date sent: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 19:22:33 -0500
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #14
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Sunday, 16 April 1995 Volume 01 : Number 014
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tom Bickley <LIBEM131@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 08:58:17 EDT
Subject: RE: Cage Book Reccomendations
An address for Duke University Press in the States is: Box 90660 Durham/
NC 27708-0660/ tel. 919-687-3600 (This is from the Publishers volume of
Books in Print.)
Yes, I was delighted to see this book. It holds some
promise of bringing together my life as a composer and my secret daytime
identity as an African American Studies librarian. ;-D -Tom
Tom Bickley, Librarian
Anacostia Museum, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC
a museum of African American history and culture
202-287-3380 LIBEM131@sivm.si.edu MRC520
------------------------------
From: kparks@its.brooklyn.cuny.edu (Kevin Parks)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 11:12:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Cage and humor
- -->Ok. For those who might not know, Moorman was (is?) a cellist who
- -->achieved a fame (or notoriety) beyond the avant garde scene, due to her
- -->occasional topless recitals. (Which does not mean she took the top off
- -->of her cello.)
Sadly, Moorman died a few years ago. Ironically she died of breast cancer.
kevin parks
the center for computer music at brooklyn college
------------------------------
From: sarmad@clark.net
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:04:57 -0500
Subject: Re: 0'0"
>a conceptual gag,...........
The writer of these words perhaps needs or perhaps does not need to know
that the words 'conceptual gag' refer to his own maturation process as a
creative artist. The sooner this does or does not occur, the sooner he
will discover whether this work does or does not belong on his program.
Brody
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 13:16:49 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) cross-fertilization
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To: silence@bga.com
Subject: cross fertilization
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 09:29:01 EDT
>From: John Saylor <jsaylor@MIT.EDU>
I saw this on the Sun Ra list, and thought I would
forward it here not onlu to help Marta [whom I have
never met], but also for my own interest.
- ------- Forwarded Message
>From : "Marta J. Ulvaeus" <mju1421@IS.NYU.EDU>
Reply-To: Sun Ra and his Arkestra <SATURN@NIC.SURFNET.NL>
Subject : Re: Cage and Ra
Date : Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:09:04 -0400
Dear Saturnites,
I am wondering if any of you could furnish me with information about the
time that Ra played with John Cage. What I would like to know is
1) How did the collaboration come about.
2) How did each of them feel about the event
3) How did Ra feel about Cage's music
4) How did Cage feel about Ra's music
Any related info in print? If memory serves, the release of that music
had little if any liner note information. Sadly my music resources are
all in California...boxed up in a garage. Your help would be very much
appreciated.
Marta Ulvaeus
mju1421@is.nyu.edu
- ------- End of Forwarded Message
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: Myron Bennett <mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 18:48:12 -0400
Subject: Re: (Fwd) cross-fertilization
While I was with WGUC, that record was sent to me (sadly, the station
still has it, not me.) I have a vague recollection that .... at the
moment his first name escapes me .... (?) Mandl had something to do with
either the event or producing the recording. At any rate, I somehow
suspect that he might have knowledge of the event. I can find his email
address if no other sources come through on this.
My recollection is that it was at a beach, in a tent, and Sun Ra played
some on his electronic keyboards, and when he was through, John played
piano, or did something ... sadly, I forgot. I also recall that the
notes did say somthing about how it came about.
Let me know if I should help more.
Myron
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 95 19:45:12 -0400
Subject: Ra and Cage
Myron's memory about the beach setting is correct. I heard that the
performance took place at Coney Island (that's in Brooklyn, for those
not in the NY-know).
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 08:35:07 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) cross-fertilization
The liner notes for the JOHN CAGE MEETS SUN RA recording were reasonably rich
and informative. They are by Howard Mandel; and they are a reprint of his
article "Coney Island of the Minds," which appeared in Volume II, Number 1
of EAR MAGAZINE. It should be possible to track down the original, given
the right kind of library at your disposal. It has been a while since I
played this record. As I recall, Ra and Cage alternated in their performances;
and I do not think they did anything together. Ra did his usual
improvisations, along with Marshall Allen; and Cage chanted in
the style of his "Empty Words" compositions. (The date of the
concert, by the way, was June 8, 1986. I would be surprised if
the event was NOT reviewed by at least THE NEW YORK TIMES and THE
VILLAGE VOICE.)
Stephen W. Smoliar (smoliar@iss.nus.sg); Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace; Kent Ridge
SINGAPORE 0511; Tel: +65-772-3350; FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 02:01:07 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) BOUNCE silence@bga.com: Admin request
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>From silence-owner@bga.com Sat Apr 15 00:46:00 1995
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Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 22:46:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) cross-fertilization
To: silence@bga.com
Cc: silence@bga.com
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i've been trying to find a sun ra list since i got on the net, and my
every attempt to subscribe has failed. what do you do to get on the list?
i've done two all night radio programs where i played sun ra only on kaos
fm, the first was 4 hours, and the second was 6. please tell me how to
subscribe. - ricardo wang
On Fri, 14 Apr 1995, Joseph Zitt wrote:
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> To: silence@bga.com
> Subject: cross fertilization
> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 09:29:01 EDT
> >From: John Saylor <jsaylor@MIT.EDU>
>
>
> I saw this on the Sun Ra list, and thought I would
> forward it here not onlu to help Marta [whom I have
> never met], but also for my own interest.
>
> ------- Forwarded Message
>
> >From : "Marta J. Ulvaeus" <mju1421@IS.NYU.EDU>
> Reply-To: Sun Ra and his Arkestra <SATURN@NIC.SURFNET.NL>
> Subject : Re: Cage and Ra
> Date : Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:09:04 -0400
>
>
> Dear Saturnites,
> I am wondering if any of you could furnish me with information about the
> time that Ra played with John Cage. What I would like to know is
> 1) How did the collaboration come about.
> 2) How did each of them feel about the event
> 3) How did Ra feel about Cage's music
> 4) How did Cage feel about Ra's music
> Any related info in print? If memory serves, the release of that music
> had little if any liner note information. Sadly my music resources are
> all in California...boxed up in a garage. Your help would be very much
> appreciated.
> Marta Ulvaeus
> mju1421@is.nyu.edu
>
> ------- End of Forwarded Message
>
> ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
> |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
> ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
> |/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
> / <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
>
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: memcr@netcom.com
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 03:10:38 -0700
Subject: Re: (Fwd) cross-fertilization
>I saw this on the Sun Ra list...
>
>>From : "Marta J. Ulvaeus" <mju1421@IS.NYU.EDU>
>
>Dear Saturnites,
>I am wondering if any of you could furnish me with information about the
>time that Ra played with John Cage. What I would like to know is
>1) How did the collaboration come about.
>2) How did each of them feel about the event
>3) How did Ra feel about Cage's music
>4) How did Cage feel about Ra's music
I'll try to answer some of these questions by quoting from the album notes.
The album BTW is "JOHN CAGE meets SUN RA- unedited segments of the historic
concert" (Meltdown Records MPA-1). The performance took place at "Sideshows
by the Seashore", refered to as a "faded shed" by the writer Howard Mandel.
I have edited the following:
"One hundred fifty people had gathered at the Coney island club, which
included a barker w/ a bullhorn out in front. "Hurr-ay, hurr-ay, get your
tickets- John Cage meets Sun Ra, live, inside." The crowd had gathered to
see two famous, fearless thinkers-about-sound get together, though no
collaboration was promised. Inside a man banged a drum for attention and a
bare-chested black man with a hieroglyphics-marked terrycloth towel wrapped
around his middle walked onto the orange draped stage holding a bowl of
smoking incense in one palm, an ankh in his other fist. Right behind him
was Marshall Allen, Ra's longtime alto-playing lieutenant; he raised an
oblong black metal wind synthesizer to his lips and blew a weird electronic
fanfare through it. Then came Ra, in a purple tunic w/ silver foil sleeves,
a star-studded cloth cap on his head so that only a fringe of orange-dyed
hair peeked out over his ears; a tuft of neatly trimmed orange beard
decorated his second chin. And w/ him: Cage as usual, in faded blue jeans
and grey jacket over a blue denim workshirt. Cage sat at a table behind a
microphone, while Ra began to play w/ his Yamaha DX7.
With his attendants peering over his shoulder, he conjured elemental sounds
for a few minutes. Cage looked on, interested if impassive, and when Ra
chose to stop, Cage grinned and applauded like everyone else.
Cage read without any ritual more elaborate than putting on his glasses.
His utterance might have been a mesostic. Whatever writings he derived them
from, Cage's dipthongs had a soothing effect. Perhaps he was
under-amplified, but his low volume and long pauses between syllables
quieted the crowd, drew them in to consideration of the ambient sounds- the
steady whoosh of air from a circulating fan, the infrequent interpolation of
a boom-box, laughs or fragments of conversation from the boardwalk outside-
probably in keeping w/ his intentions. Ra regarded Cage with respectful
attention. There was some applause when Cage stopped, then Ra played again.
During Cage's next turn, Ra paged through one of his self-published
pamphlets to select some poems. Accompanying himself w/ one hand on the
keyboard, Ra warned of nuclear holocaust and encouraged humans to create an
alternate future. The obvious variation in Cage's performance from section
to section was in the duration of his pauses. While seconds ticked by, was
he considering the flux in "silence"? Letting the echo of his syllables
end? Awaiting another impulse to speak? He removed his glasses, a signal
he'd finished.
Ra rose to cross the small stage and confer w/ Cage. Cage nodded agreeably,
and again mouthed his stretched-out vowels; Ra gently, sparingly, added
music-box sounds, delicate crystalline notes. There was a silence, or near
silence, during which Sun Ra and John Cage eyed the audience. Everyone
waited, attuned to the next moment, the next sound. Then Cage and Ra
relaxed their attentions; the collaboration was done." - H. Mandel
The Coremaster
memcore@webcom.com
memcr@netcom.com
------------------------------
From: Ldaedalus@aol.com
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 13:40:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Cage and humor (was 0'0")
Thanks to David Miller for your last post, from a fellow nonscholar.
> I will also ask -- what in Cage's *actual writings* would lead anyone to
> believe that he had any interest in gags, or that he was a "what the
> heck, anything goes" kind of a guy? Serious question.
The qualifier *actual writings* changes things, but my observation is that
many who have heard of Cage without investigating very deeply respond to
matters such as chance and indeterminacy as if they mean the same as
haphazard or capricious. There is often a kind of immediate reaction along
the lines of, well if it's up to chance, anything could have happened, so who
cares, right? Sometimes there is a complete disinclination to explore the
territory further.
This I think points to a fascinating aspect of Cage. What is it about his
work and ideas that finds so many people unable to grasp it as something
other than a gag? There is a kind of participation involved that differs from
what's involved in many other forms of music. It is I suppose on a
philosophical level, and there's a subtlety to it that takes some tuning in
to, and the inclination to do that tuning in.
Patience would seem to be the best way to deal with those who don't (yet)
participate in this way. I always enjoy the challenge of taking a Cagean
position among those who don't understand, or who think it's all a joke, or
just pretentious nonsense. It gives me a chance to focus my own thinking, and
after some years I've turned a few people on to Cage, which is its own
reward.
------------------------------
From: Timoth Leanse <tleanse@emerald.tufts.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Cgndhmr(ws0'0")
DETERMINING whether or not cage was serious or joking about
anything he did seems a bit ironic, when so much of his work was about
indeterminancy. why would we think for a moment that this principle
would not also apply to the consideration of his works in general?
deciding that cage is either serious or joking speculates an intention.
pieces like 0'00" and 4'33" MIGHT be considered polemical or
rhetorical in terms of structure, notation, and performance: jokes and
hoaxes with commentary value. or maybe they are not, maybe they are MEANT
to be taken seriously, but let's leave the isolation of intention to
nostalgic philosophies.
cage's work seems to implore and imply at least double "reading":
simulatneously understanding something as a joke, and as perfectly
serious. aschizoid mode of reading that sides with both sides of a
binary opposition, throwing into question the inevitable hierarchical
relation between the two.
destroy all hierarchies? well, not really, he was both serious and
joking. and so am i, and so are you.
timoth
the end of radio
tleanse@emerald.tufts.edu
end@world.std.com
------------------------------
From: "Fred E. Maus" <fem2x@darwin.clas.virginia.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 9:15:38 EDT
Subject: Methods and products
I want to react to an idea that has been on this list recently,
well-formulated by John Saylor:
> . . . the most important
> thing about this score is NOT the fact that chance procedures were
> used to create it. In the same way that the "rules" of voice
> leading were NOT the most important thing about Bach's music, the
> rules of chance [a nice phrase ...] are not the most important
> thing about Cage's music.
And:
> Forget the notes, go to the music! And yes- to my ears, there is
> something unusual and spiritually resonant about his music.
My reaction is mixed. On one hand, I agree that one should
*listen*, and respond without the response being controlled by
what one knows about compositional procedure. I think there's a
strong parallel between Babbitt and Cage here: both wrote a lot
about music, and they tended to describe compositional
procedures. So criticism that draws on the composers' own words
has been too concerned with procedure. So there's a real need
for discourse that focusses on sounds and listening experiences.
This is happening recently for Babbitt, by the way, most
notably in a recent series of essays by Joseph Dubiel in
_Perspectives of New Music_.
But if you get clear on the need to be a listener, there's still
an interesting range of questions about *why* the composers
chose to work the ways they did, and *why* they talked about it
so much. I learned about this from a conversation with Pauline
Oliveros (in the current issue of _Perspectives_), and quoting
from her is the main point of this message.
(Long quotation follows, constituting the remainder of this
message!)
==============================================
FM: Do you have more thoughts about androgynous music?
PO: Well, I think it would certainly be in the deep structure
of how the music is played and assembled. You can have music as
linear process, and music as nonlinear process. And you can
have music that's both, and that would probably do it.
Probably John Cage's music could be looked at in
that way. He has opened the world of music so much, with his
ideas. But I also think of his music as highly disciplined in
its structure.
Others dismiss it as "all those chance operations." But in
working with chance, asking the right questions is crucial, of
course. And then having the discipline to follow the method is
another thing, and that has to do with some linearity, whereas
the material and the result would be nonlinear.
FM: With Cage, on one hand there are the performances, and
they're quite wonderful. And on the other hand, he's never
gotten tired of explaining how he did it.
PO: Right, because hardly anyone understands the discipline.
FM: He loves to tell, step by step, what stages he went
through. And it's not a situation where someone is telling you
how the piece was made so that you know what to listen for;
there's more of a disjunction.
PO: What he's telling you is the process he experienced, which
is something quite aside from the music. And there's the effect
on him. Have you heard anyone ask him what the effect on him
is, to do such a process? Has anybody asked that question?
FM: People wonder *why* he did it that way.
PO: That's not the right question. The right question is: what
effect does it have on him? "Why do you like to do that?"
FM: It's such an amazing kind of discipline; it's an elaborate
discipline, the point of which, in a way, is to renounce
control. It's the opposite of Milton Babbitt's discipline.
PO: Yes, that's true. But there's still control, because you've
asked the right questions. If you haven't asked the right
questions, then you're probably going to miss!
The music is beautiful, very beautiful. It has a very
different kind of energy. I thought of it as feminist music;
but now I think of it as androgynous music, more.
- --
Fred Everett Maus Dept. phone (804) 924-3052
Department of Music Home phone (804) 974-6039
University of Virginia Fax to dept. (804) 924-6033
Charlottesville VA 22903
------------------------------
From: ross.davis@vt.edu (Matthew Ross Davis)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 11:02:25 -0400
Subject: 4'33"
>cage's work seems to implore and imply at least double "reading":
>simulatneously understanding something as a joke, and as perfectly
>serious. aschizoid mode of reading that sides with both sides of a
>binary opposition, throwing into question the inevitable hierarchical
>relation between the two.
I agree with this. When I performed 4'33" (arranged for guitar) a year ago
at a recital, I had this kind of sense about it; that it was both mocking
and somewhat dadaist, but at the same time quite serious, and I was very
pleased when it was finished at the ammount of applause I got. The
audience, though I don't think I could really use the word 'enjoyed', at
the very least appreciated it, and the ones who knew about it even more so.
Matthew Ross Davis | Bass-baritone
ross.davis@vt.edu | musician
Virginia Tech | composer
703-231-5799 | homebrewer
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 14:24:14 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Sun Ra Mailing List
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>To: silence@bga.com
>From: Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
>Subject: Sun Ra mailing list
>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 10:28:01 -0500
>Sender: tisue@yosemite.dis.anl.gov
>content-length: 607
>
>
>On the off chance that more than one person might be interested...
>The Sun Ra mailing list is called Saturn. To subscribe, send the
>message:
> SUBSCRIBE SATURN <your name>
>to:
> listserv@hearn.bitnet
>If you have any questions about the list, contact:
> saturn-request@hearn.bitnet
>Some mailers have trouble with .bitnet addresses; if you have problems
>contacting the above addresses, use hearn.nic.surfnet.nl instead.
>
>The list archives go back several years and are available through the
>list server. They contain a real treasure trove of information.
>
>== Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
>Saturn list admin
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: Tim Knight <tknight@oise.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:18:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: More on Feldman and notation
On Sun, 9 Apr 1995, Douglas Cohen wrote:
>
> Thanks Myron, these are all good points. The "Crippled Symmetry" article
> is probably Feldman's most significant one from the period where he began
> to compose less for large orchestra and concentrated on chamber works of
> extended duration. From 81 onward he wrote very little about music and
> the best source of information we have are the lectures of his which have
> been recorded.
>
Douglas, are the recordings of these lectures readily available? Where
could I find a copy of them? Thanks.
*******************************>
* F. Tim Knight *
****************************************************>
* tknight@oise.on.ca * Composer/Library Asst. IV
***********************************************************************>
********>
**************>
------------------------------
From: John Saylor <jsaylor@MIT.EDU>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 13:31:28 EDT
Subject: Re: nothing to say and saying it
[x]
>I would like to second the spirit of this post. Recently someone was rebuked
>for asking a naive question about the score of one of Cage's duration pieces.
Excuse me, it was not a naive question, he was going to play
it as a gag. I was not the only one disturbed by this post,
but I was the most direct and "cutting" in my reply.
A gag- a joke- he was going to play it as a joke. By doing
this, he not only belittles Cage & his work, but also
himself.
That disturbed me and I responded.
> If people are going to be chastised for their naivete or inexperience and
>punished for their curiosity, count me out.
No, but if someone belitlles Cage & his work here, they may
hear a contrary opinion. And isn't my opinion part of the
free exchange of ideas that you are so ardently defending?
Feel free to send email, but let's not waste anymore
bandwith on my posting style.
jsaylor@mit.edu
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 17:48:22 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Little Four Paws
- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 15:02:29 -0500
From: Josh Ronsen <rons@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-Id: <199504162002.PAA16506@quads.uchicago.edu>
To: silence@bga.com
Subject: Little Four Paws
Does anybody have any information, or have even heard of this Cage piece
for piano and voice? I am specificly looking for its year of composition.
The piece can be found on a colection of "Songs of America", although I have
>not actually seen this record. Help?
By the way, as I know there are a lot of new members to this list, I have a
listing of every Cage piece I have been able to track down, which I would
be happy to email or repost to the list if there were interest in it.
It is nice to see so much discussion going on here, although I have been
too busy to contribute anything myself.
Regards,
Josh Ronsen
rons@midway.uchicago.edu
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: David P Miller <dpmiller@world.std.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 19:39:43 +0059 (EDT)
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Little Four Paws
Could this song be one of the _Five Songs for Contralto_ from 1938? The
C.F. Peters brochure I have lists this with "text by e.e. cummings" but
doesn't list the titles. Sure sounds like a cummings title, though.
You can call Peters at 212-686-4147. Their order number is P6710.
David Miller
dpmiller@world.std.com
------------------------------
From: Jeff Blanding <perseus@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 17:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: re: humor in cage (?)
someone involved in this discussion, perhaps five posts back, suggested
something that made me think: it cannot be said that someone else
does/doesnot 'get' cage. i would think that whatever use is made or result
occurs resulting from cage in anyway would be Interesting in its own way..
*** ** *** ** *** ** *** *
"as film demands the visual artist who has also a feeling for words,
the wireless on the other hand needs a master of words who has also
a feeling for modes of expression appropriate to the sensuous world."
Rudolf Arnheim, 'Radio, the Art of Sound'(1936)
*** ** *** ** *** ** *** *
------------------------------
End of silence-digest V1 #14
****************************
Date sent: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 19:23:59 -0500
From: owner-silence-digest@bga.com
To: silence-digest@bga.com
Subject: silence-digest V1 #15
Send reply to: silence@bga.com
silence-digest Tuesday, 18 April 1995 Volume 01 : Number 015
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ross.davis@vt.edu (Matthew Ross Davis)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 20:53:22 -0400
Subject: re: humor in cage (?)
> someone involved in this discussion, perhaps five posts back, suggested
>something that made me think: it cannot be said that someone else
>does/doesnot 'get' cage. i would think that whatever use is made or result
>occurs resulting from cage in anyway would be Interesting in its own way..
Well I think that's part of the point behind some of his music - what
people don't get about it adds to it. It's part of that 'negative space'
phenomenon, I think.
Matthew Ross Davis | Bass-baritone
ross.davis@vt.edu | musician
Virginia Tech | composer
703-231-5799 | homebrewer
------------------------------
From: Lennon McAdams III <rwang@elwha.evergreen.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 00:00:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: nothing to say and saying it
the repetition of this argument is getting to resemble a phillip glass
piece much more than anything by cage. _ rwang
On Mon, 10 Apr 1995, John Saylor wrote:
>
> [x]
> >I would like to second the spirit of this post. Recently someone was rebuked
> >for asking a naive question about the score of one of Cage's duration pieces.
>
> Excuse me, it was not a naive question, he was going to play
> it as a gag. I was not the only one disturbed by this post,
> but I was the most direct and "cutting" in my reply.
>
> A gag- a joke- he was going to play it as a joke. By doing
> this, he not only belittles Cage & his work, but also
> himself.
>
> That disturbed me and I responded.
>
> > If people are going to be chastised for their naivete or inexperience and
> >punished for their curiosity, count me out.
>
> No, but if someone belitlles Cage & his work here, they may
> hear a contrary opinion. And isn't my opinion part of the
> free exchange of ideas that you are so ardently defending?
>
> Feel free to send email, but let's not waste anymore
> bandwith on my posting style.
>
> jsaylor@mit.edu
>
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 23:56:11 +0000
Subject: For those of you just tuning in (relatively speaking)
A reminder: the previous discussions on the list can be found in
digest form on our Web page, <http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/Cage/>.
A lot has gone on here, punctuated by long periods of ... umm ...
silence.
We are, however, missing digest #7 -- could someone send me a copy to
post? Thanks.
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 09:50:56 +0800
Subject: Methods and products
Fred Maus brings in some unexpected company:
> So there's a real need
>for discourse that focusses on sounds and listening experiences.
>
>This is happening recently for Babbitt, by the way, most
>notably in a recent series of essays by Joseph Dubiel in
>_Perspectives of New Music_.
>
I just hope these are an improvement over Cirro Scotto's 1988 "Preparing a
Performance of Babbitt's ARIE DA CAPO." This one was REALLY heavy on the
mathematics, to the point that the few paragraphs at the end which had anything
to do with listening experiences not only seemed practically gratuitous but
(for me at least) have yet to relate in any effective way to the recording
of Scotto's performance which accompanied that issue of PERSPECTIVES. As
recently emerged on the mto-talk mailing list, it is all very well and good
to SAY we ought to talk about sounds and listening experiences; but it is
rather amazing how ill-equipped we seem to be to actually do so!
>But if you get clear on the need to be a listener, there's still
>an interesting range of questions about *why* the composers
>chose to work the ways they did, and *why* they talked about it
>so much.
I have a conjecture on this which grew out of the attached Oliveros interview.
One consequence of all the different aesthetic upheavals which were taking
place throughout the twentieth century is that the whole question of DISCIPLINE
was become subject to examination. As a result, we encountered major
preoccupations with the FORMATION AND JUSTIFICATION OF METHOD which often
overtook the concern for MAKING MUSIC. These preoccupations tended to
concentrate on two opposite extremes: the development of aleatoric methods
and the development of highly-determined methods. My personal recollection
is that Virgil Thompson was one of the first to write (in THE NEW YORK REVIEW)
that the ear could not tell one from the other; and that is probably because
neither method makes any allowances at all for listening experiences (except
to the extent that those experiences may contribute to how the system is set
up before the method is applied).
I think there are several reasons why Cage should have had this concern with
method. One is that his sense of discipline was probably shaped by Schoenberg,
who must have been quite an intimidating presence. I suspect Cage felt a real
need to justify what he was doing to Schoenberg, even if he never personally
confronted Schoenberg with his justifications. After Schoenberg came the Zen
experiences. Here, again, discipline was very important part of the whole
philosophy of how to live in the world; so it is easy to see how that emphasis
on discipline would carry over to acts of composition (particularly since
discipline became a means to the end of removing the self from the creative
act). However, I do not see discipline for the sake of Zen necessarily being
a discipline about which one is obliged to talk; so I think the reason Cage
did so much writing about the subject was that it was the only way he had to
deal with Schoenberg (first the man and then the ghost). No matter how much
Zen may have helped him to compose his soul, there was still a part of it which
felt he was obliged to prove himself.
Stephen W. Smoliar (smoliar@iss.nus.sg); Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace; Kent Ridge
SINGAPORE 0511; Tel: +65-772-3350; FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: memcr@netcom.com
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 04:00:08 -0700
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Little Four Paws
>I have a listing of every Cage piece I have been able to track down, which
>I would be happy to email or repost to the list if there were interest in
>it...
>
I would find that valuable.
Coremaster
memcore@webcom.com
memcr@netcom.com
------------------------------
From: Bartok <FESKENCJ@PLU.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 10:00:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cage listing
I could really use a (hopefully) complete list of Cage's works. Either post it or send
it to me, please!
Casey Feskens
feskencj@pepper.plu.edu
------------------------------
From: Jeremy Bernstein <SJB4590@OCVAXA.CC.OBERLIN.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 12:52:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Little Four Paws
Someone wrote:
> Does anybody have any information, or have even heard of this Cage piece
> for piano and voice? I am specificly looking for its year of composition.
> The piece can be found on a colection of "Songs of America", although I
> have etc.
in reference to "Little Four Paws" -- I have the score right here -- it is part
of the five songs for contralto (the first) -- date 1960. the movements are:
1. little four paws
2. little Christmas tree
3. in Just-
4. hist whist
5. Tumbling hair
it is Edition Peters No. 6710...
jeremy
------------------------------
From: DMB5561719@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 08:54:59 -0400
Subject: Re: For those of you just tun...
>A reminder: the previous discussions on the list can be found in
>digest form on our Web page, <http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/Cage/>.
>A lot has gone on here, punctuated by long periods of ... umm ...
>silence.
That reminds me: is possible to get this mail list
in digest form yet?
David Beardsley
dmb5561719@aol.com
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 13:23:22 +0800
Subject: Methods and products
Peter,
The best way to learn about things like MUSIC THEORY ONLINE (MTO) and related
information is through the Boethius Server at that University of California at
Santa Barbara: http://boethius.music.ucsb.edu/boethius.html.
Stephen W. Smoliar (smoliar@iss.nus.sg); Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace; Kent Ridge
SINGAPORE 0511; Tel: +65-772-3350; FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 23:06:15 +0000
Subject: Re: For those of you just tun...
DMB5561719@aol.com writes:
> That reminds me: is possible to get this mail list
> in digest form yet?
Yes: send a message with the text
subscribe silence-digest
to majordomo@bga.com
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 95 18:12:01 -0400
Subject: Sounds/Procedures/Experience
In Cage's case, I don't see how you can separate talking about procedures
from talking about sounds -- his procedures are very much about the sounds
he uses.
Talking about experiences moves into a different realm altogether -- listening
as opposed to composition. I fear that writing about musical experience is
a losing proposition; I think only something that has the character of
poetry would be worthwhile, and then it would be so personal and artistic
that it would be useless for the purpose of "discourse" (hallelujah).
I find myself drawn in this direction, but have no clue as to where I'm
going.
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 95 18:04:19 -0400
Subject: Little Four Paws
Yes, that piece is in the Five Songs for Contralto, written in July 1938.
The other titles in that set are:
little Christmas tree
in Just-
hist whist
Tumbling hair
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
------------------------------
From: saxmania@rci.ripco.com (Sax Therapy)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 16:15:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Cage on Synthesizers
After a performance of his music at which Cage was in attendance, a few
of us audience members chatted with him for a short while. One of the
questions was what Cage thought of synthsizers. At this time he did not
like them at all. You can hear this in 3 sound-bytes I put on my web
site from a recording of this chat. To get to the site point your
web browser to this URL http://ripco.com:8080/~saxmania/sounds/. There
are Wav versions which are 220k in size and umcompressed. The Mac aif
files are compressed and ar around 38k. I had no problem retreiving the
files using Lynx and playing them on my Mac. Mac users can play the wav
files by using Balthazar or Brian's Sound Tools to convert them. Let me
know if you have any problems with the files. In the future I may upload
some more of his comments.......Saul
- --
______________________________________________________________________________
/~(_)~\
/~(_)~\
II====== l =-} saul smaizys saxmania@ripco.com {-= l ======II
\_(~)_/ web page=http://ripco.com:8080/~saxmania/A.html \_(~)_/
______________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 95 18:01:44 -0400
Subject: Cage's writing about music
Fred Maus wrote: "I think there's a strong parallel between
Babbitt and Cage here: both wrote a lot about music, and they
tended to describe compositional procedures."
I'd dispute that -- After Silence, Cage's writings were rarely about music. More
often, they _were_ music, which is quite a different thing. Actually, the sort of
technical writing Fred alludes to is pretty rare in Cage's writings (there are a
couple of articles in Silence, and then the odd program note or two). When asked
about his music, though, John did tend to present his methods. It's an interesting
situation: you can't really talk in a "nuts-and-bolts" way about Cage's music
without talking about what he personally did, how he proceeded. In other music
(say, Mozart) you can act as if the composer does not exist. You can not do this with
Cage. And I think that his talk about music was really just talk about what he
did with his life. Cage was certainly no theoretician (for the life of me, I don't
understand the whole "composer/theorist" model -- what do the two things have
to do with each other?).
I have one other minor quibble: "So criticism that draws on the composers' own words
has been too concerned with procedure. So there's a real need
for discourse that focusses on sounds and listening experiences."
In Cage's case, the procedures are inseparable from
the sounds. The "listening experience" is another thing altogether, but then
you move from talking about composing to talking about listening.
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 18:44:07 +0800
Subject: (Fwd) Little Four Paws
SONGS OF AMERICA is an Elektra/Nonesuch CD, catalog number 9 79178-2. I
suppose it is possible that they let it go out of print, given all the other
ways in which Nonesuch seems to have been going downhill. The singer is Jan
DeGaetani. I would think it would be worth trying to place a special order.
Stephen W. Smoliar (smoliar@iss.nus.sg); Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace; Kent Ridge
SINGAPORE 0511; Tel: +65-772-3350; FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 19:39:52 +0800
Subject: Sounds/Procedures/Experience
>
>In Cage's case, I don't see how you can separate talking about procedures
>from talking about sounds -- his procedures are very much about the sounds
>he uses.
>
I agree that the sounds are very tightly coupled to the procedures; but, at
the end of the day, one does not perceive procedures. Rather one perceives
sounds. One does not perceive the procedure by which vibrato is applied to
a tone or a phrase is articulated. One perceives the sound of that tone or
phrase, complete with vibrato embellishment and articulation of events.
Let me try to be a little less philosophical and ground this discussion in some
concrete examples. Consider works like MUSIC OF CHANGES or the star chart
compositions. Those are cases where the procedures have been very clearly
articulated. I suppose it might even be possible to work backwards from the
scores (at least for some passages) and reconstruct the specific results from
those procedures which yielded those particular notes. So what, if anything,
does such procedural explication have to do with the music AS IT SOUNDS (which,
in turn, I would argue also has to do with how it should be performed)?
My personal argument is that there is actually very little connection once we
have to start worrying about performance. I would draw some of my supporting
evidence from what I know of Merce Cunningham's work with procedure as a basis
for choreography. Like Cage, he would formulate a procedure (usually involving
chance) for a new dance and prepare a set of working notes based on that
procedure. Armed with those notes, however, his task became one of FITTING
THE RESULTS OF THE PROCEDURE TO THE DANCERS. In other words the procedure
was only a point of departure from which a performance then had to be
constructed. I have always figured that this would be about the only
sensible way in which one can approach a work like MUSIC OF CHANGES.
I would further argue that the only way one can achieve this approach is to
figure out how to LISTEN to this music as prerequisite to PLAYING it (just
as is the case with so many other piano compositions). This does NOT mean
listening for evidence of the procedure. It may be possible to tease that
evidence out of the score, given sufficient background knowledge; but it
is just not there in the sound. Besides, "hearing the procedure" in MUSIC
OF CHANGES does not seem to have any more perceptual impact than "hearing
the row" in MARTEAU SANS MAITRE (to choose a particularly contentious example).
So what DO we hear? Basically, we hear what Cage was trying to teach us to
hear in so many of his compositions: the passage of time articulated by
sounds. Time is segmented into gestures and phrases. Those gestures and
phrases are not as "intuitively obvious" as they may be when we hear them
(and immediately recognize them as gestures and phrases) in Mozart; but
they are there. They emerge from how the passage of time is paced and how
that pacing derives from parameters of sound, such as register and loudness.
What results is a "rhetoric of the passage of time;" and it is THAT rhetoric
which must be captured and executed in order for one to say that one has
PERFORMED a work like MUSIC OF CHANGES.
Having said all that, I am now going to give myself a trapdoor for escape. I
do NOT wish to argue that there is any DEFINITIVE temporal segmentation of
MUSIC OF CHANGES. Just as one can have different opinions regarding the
phrasing of Mozart, I see no reason why different performers cannot hear
different versions of that "rhetoric of the passage of time." Anyone who
decides to perform this music has to work out the rhetoric of his own
performance; and there is no reason why different "rhetorical arguments"
cannot be deduced from the material in a single score.
>Talking about experiences moves into a different realm altogether -- listening
>as opposed to composition. I fear that writing about musical experience is
>a losing proposition; I think only something that has the character of
>poetry would be worthwhile, and then it would be so personal and artistic
>that it would be useless for the purpose of "discourse" (hallelujah).
I guess I disagree with just about everything here. First of all, I am
reminded of a quotation attributed to Mahler in the de la Grange biography:
"I am banging my head against the wall, but the wall is giving way." I think
of the problem no so much as a losing proposition as a crooked roulette wheel.
You KNOW that you are going to lose in the long run and that you will not be
compensated for the occasional win; but, unfortunately, it is the only wheel
in town. As the third law of thermodynamics says, you got to play.
Resorting to poetry in order to write about music is nothing new. On page 1 of
Robert Cogan's NEW IMAGES OF MUSIC SOUND, he is already quoting a Sung dynasty
treatise about the sounds of the Chinese lute. Sounds are described as
"dragonflies alighting on water" and "a cold cicada bemoaning the coming
of autumn." (None of this is too different from the invocations of metaphor
in the I CHING, of course.) So why should any of this be "useless for the
purpose of 'discourse?'" Certainly, George Lakoff would not write it off
as useless. As far as Lakoff is concerned, metaphor is a fundamental
ingredient (perhaps even THE fundamental ingredient) of cognition. (Think
about it. Have you ever engaged in a discourse which was absolutely devoid
of metaphor? Once you get beyond "the cat is on the mat," it's pretty
difficult!)
The point is that discourse is not about the exchange of sentential forms in
some logical calculus. If it were, computer hackers would have solved the
natural language problem years ago; but THEY are the ones who cannot get
beyond "the cat is on the mat." Discourse is about sharing of mental state
among some collection of human beings; and, as if often the case, satisfactory
sharing arises from negotiation. We throw out our words and see how they are
received. If our expectations are satisfied, we throw out some more the same
way; if they are not, we fish around with what we get back and work out a way
to try again. Discourse is all about EXCHANGE, rather than DECODING.
This is one of the things which makes Cage so interesting. He was always
coming up with new things to throw out in the name of discourse (performance
being are particular form of discourse). In our role as audience, we could
not always throw things back at him. (Some audiences DID throw things back,
but that is another story.) However, we have the alternative of throwing
things among each other--things which emerge from all the experiences we
have had, as different members of a community, of the performances we have
heard (and heard about). I see this as one of the key roles of this mailing
list: the encouragement of discourse about Cage's music in perhaps the only
way in which it can be validly engaged . . . within a community of
"negotiators." (Now, just to keep the circle closed, I also happen
to believe that this is no different than discourse about Mozart;
so, once again, I find myself returning to my no-different-than-any-other-music
theme.)
One of the nice things about negotiation is that you do not necessarily have to
converge on any conclusions. You do not even have to worry if consensus is not
achieved. All the fun is in GETTING THERE. Are we banging our heads against
the wall? Only if we regard the objective of discourse as one of breaking down
that wall. Otherwise, we may let learn to enjoy the little flecks of mortar
which occasionally fall to our feet.
Stephen W. Smoliar (smoliar@iss.nus.sg); Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace; Kent Ridge
SINGAPORE 0511; Tel: +65-772-3350; FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: John Saylor <jsaylor@MIT.EDU>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:38:27 EDT
Subject: Re: Sounds/Procedures/Experience
>In Cage's case, I don't see how you can separate talking about procedures
>from talking about sounds -- his procedures are very much about the sounds
>he uses.
Although I think I understand what you're
saying [you need those procedures to get
those sounds], I think it is possible to talk
about the sounds themselves [outside of the
procedures used to organize them]; what kind
of sound-world is created, how dense is it,
how colorful is it, and [my personal fave]
what kind of associations can we draw from it.
The associations one draws may be closely
alligned with the compositional method
[compare Beethoven and Cage], but there is
also an underlying "growth procedure" [for
lack of a beeter term] that shapes how the
entire piece moves. It is about more than
just choosing individual pitches, rhythms,
articulations &c.; it is about how whole
blocks of structure [filled with content]
relate to each other. It is about meaning in
music.
A topic that is sadly obscured nowadays by a
concern for micro-organization. And also it
requires philosophy, metaphysics, and all
that fuzzy stuff that can't really be
quantified like matricies of pitch-classes
can.
>Talking about experiences moves into a different realm altogether -- listening
>as opposed to composition. I fear that writing about musical experience is
>a losing proposition; I think only something that has the character of
>poetry would be worthwhile, and then it would be so personal and artistic
>that it would be useless for the purpose of "discourse" (hallelujah).
Well, it has always been my contention that
writing about music is much more difficult
than hearing it and understanding it. I
think poetry might be the best vehicle for
this [no joke]. I have seen some of the most
exciting [both visceral and intellectual]
music reduced to dull dry figures time and
time again. I don't think it has to be this
way.
- --
<a href="http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jsaylor/home.html">
jsaylor</a>
------------------------------
From: "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" <mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 15:00:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: speaking on experiences
At times, I agree with James Pritchett's point about writing about
experience being a losing proposition. On the whole, however, I'm not
convinced that discoursing about one's experience of an object--be it a
piece of music, a slab of wood, etc.,--somehow de-mystifies that object.
In fact, the multitude of different experiences, and the communication of
these, seems to be a temporally-displaced facet of the object experienced.
Sometimes, I see much in the professional literature that takes a win/lose,
or either/or approach to any proposition given.
There is something about the notion of 'proper' experience that is unseemly.
Either one experiences an object the way that the community deems
appropriate, or one "just doesn't get it." In other words, his
proposition isn't a winning one. I like a game of King of the Mountain
as much as the next person, but I am loathe to play it with the mind.
I maintain that analysis need not be a means to a specific end. In
addition, I find the division of heart and mind to be depressing. It's
almost as if the corpus collossum of our experiences doesn't exist.
Melancholy Afternoon,
Scott McCoy
mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu
------------------------------
From: Mark Kolmar <mkolmar@ccs.nslsilus.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 19:00:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sounds/Procedures/Experience
On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, Stephen Smoliar wrote:
> >In Cage's case, I don't see how you can separate talking about procedures
> >from talking about sounds -- his procedures are very much about the sounds
> >he uses.
> >
> I agree that the sounds are very tightly coupled to the procedures; but, at
> the end of the day, one does not perceive procedures. Rather one perceives
> sounds.
If we are discussing the listening experience--interpretation, that is,
whether conscious or not--we cannot avoid sounds being linked back to
procedures. This link is easier to detect in music which uses traditional
harmony its method of organization. Perhaps your definition of
"procedures" is different, but I would consider I-IV-V-I, and all it's
variations and embellishments, a kind of procedure. Most anyone who has a
familiarity with Western music can recognize I-IV-V-I, even if they cannot
identify it formally.
I think part of what Cage was trying to do--along with many other
composers-- was to liberate sounds by organizing them in ways that are not
so familiar and transparent. While listening or performing, one does not
percieve Cage's procedures, or Schoenberg's rows, or Xenakis' formulae.
But one does perceive the sounds, the sequence of sounds over time, that
result from the underlying procedures.
> So what, if anything,
> does such procedural explication have to do with the music AS IT SOUNDS
> [...?]
In the case of Cage and many other composers since about 1920, not as much
as for Mozart or Bach. For the latter, the organizing logic of their
music was culturally recognizable. Interpretation is in large part based
on the listener's expectation vs. what s/he actually hears.
For many modern composers, the organizing logic is deliberately
unfamiliar. Therefore, the ground rules of what should be expected next
are unknown. The listener cannot make much sense of a piece based on this
kind of interpretation, and must therefore listen in a different way.
Just as one must listen to music of Java or India in a different way than
one listens to Beethoven.
> Let me try to be a little less philosophical and ground this discussion in some
> concrete examples. Consider works like MUSIC OF CHANGES or the star chart
> compositions.
As I recall, the score for Music of Changes is notated completely, in
great detail. Every parameter was determined by chance operations, in an
effort to remove the ego of the composer from the music. Cage then hands
this set of instructions to the performer in the form of a score. Is the
performer to superimpose his/her ego onto the score, or to follow the
score as exactly as possible?
I suspect the answer is somewhere in-between, but leaning toward
following the score exactly. The composer's non-intention does not give
extra latitude to the performer. But neither does it mean the performer
must slavishly adhere to the score exactly as written.
> I would further argue that the only way one can achieve this approach is to
> figure out how to LISTEN to this music as prerequisite to PLAYING it (just
> as is the case with so many other piano compositions).[...]
>
> Time is segmented into gestures and phrases. Those gestures and
> phrases are not as "intuitively obvious" as they may be when we hear them
> (and immediately recognize them as gestures and phrases) in Mozart; but
> they are there.[...]
>
> Having said all that, I am now going to give myself a trapdoor for escape. I
> do NOT wish to argue that there is any DEFINITIVE temporal segmentation of
> MUSIC OF CHANGES. Just as one can have different opinions regarding the
> phrasing of Mozart, I see no reason why different performers cannot hear
> different versions of that "rhetoric of the passage of time."[...]
Cage (much more than Mozart) did not have any segmentation in mind. He
was, in fact, trying to remove himself from the composition. I don't
believe it is necessarily the job of the performer in this case to try to
establish phrasing. The listener is perfectly capable of doing this
him/herself. The listener is the final auditor regardless of the
performer's intention. And the composer had a non-intention to begin
with.
> Discourse is all about EXCHANGE, rather than DECODING.
And, so, I argue that it is not the job of the performer to "decode"
Music of Changes or the star-chart pieces. Nothing was encoded in the
first place. The listener will have a "discourse" with the sounds that
result from the performer's "discourse" with the score.
------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Josh Ronsen <rons@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 19:40:28 -0500
Subject: List of Cage Works
John Cage List of Works
Here is a list of every John Cage composition I can find reference to.
I don't know how useful this is/will be, but if you can think of any
additions or corrections please let me know. I know there are some
problems with the numbered pieces (note the two One^9's), and some of
the others might be mis-super-scripted as well: one of my sources did
not have super-scripts on any of the number pieces, so I had to
basically guess. I have listened to about 90 of the 300? pieces here.
So there.
- -Josh Ronsen <rons@midway.uchicago.edu> -or- <yoshi@arion.com>
First Chapter of Ecclesiastes (1932) piano
Greek Ode (1932) voice and piano
Piano Etudes (1932)
Sonata For Two Voices (1933)
Solo with Obbligato Accompaniment of Two Voices in Canon, and Six
Short Inventions on the Subjects of the Solo (1933)
Solo For Clarinet (1933)
Three Songs for Voice and Piano (1933)
20 Years After
Is It As It Was
At East And Ingredients
Six Short Inventions (1934)
Music for Xenia (1934) piano
Counterpoint (1934) piano
Allemande (1934) clarinet
Composition For 3 Voices (1934)
Quartet (for any percussion) (1935)
Three Pieces for Flute Duet (1935)
Two Pieces for Piano (1935)
Quest (1935) piano
Marriage at the Eiffel Tower (1936) piano, trombone, percussion orchestra
Trio (1936) percussion
Music for Wind Instruments No.1 (1937) flute, clarinet and bassoon
Music for Wind Instruments No.2 (1937) oboe and cornet
Music for Wind Instruments No.3 (1937) flute, oboe, clarinet, cornet
and bassoon
Five Songs for Contralto (1938) voice and piano
Little Four Paws
Little Christmas Tree
In Just-
Hist Whist
Tumbling Hair
Bacchanale (1938? 1940?) prepared piano
America Was Promised (1938) voice and 2 pianos
Metamorphosis (1938) piano
Music for Wind Instruments (1938)
Spiritual (1939) piano
Five Songs (1939) voice
Ho to AA (1939) voice
First Construction (in Metal) (1939)
Imaginary Landscape No.1 (1939)
Living Room Music: A Story (1940) stuff and voice [Stein]
Second Construction (1940)
Four Songs of the Moment (1940) piano
Instances of Silence (1940)
Fads and Fancies in the Academy (1940) piano and percussion
Double Music (1941)
Third Construction (1941)
The City Wears a Slouch Hat (1941) sound effects
Dance (1942) piano
Credo in Us (1942)
Shimmera (1942) prepared piano
Forever and Sunsmell (1942) voice and 2 percussion [Joyce]
Opening Dance (1942) piano
Jazz Study (1942) piano
March (Imaginary Lanscape No.2) (1942)
Imaginary Landscape No.3 (1942) percussion sextet
The Wonderful Widow of Eighteen Springs (1942) Voice and closed piano
Totem Ancestor (1942) prepared piano
And The Earth Shall Bear Again (1942) prepared piano
In the Name of the Holocaust (1942) prepared piano
Amores (1943) prepared piano
Tossed As It Is Untroubled (1943) prepared piano
A Room (1943) prepared piano or piano
She Is Asleep (1943) prepared piano, also tom-tom quartet
What We've So Proudly Hailed (1943) voice, 2 pianos and percussion
Ad Lib (1943) prepared piano
Chess Pieces (1943) piano
Our Spring Will Come (1943) prepared piano
Tripple Pace (1943) prepared piano
Four Dances (1944) piano, percussion and voice
Four Walls (1944) voice and piano
Spontaneous Earth (1944) prepared piano
The Unavailable Memory Of (1944) prepared piano
A Book Of Music (1944) two prepared pianos
The Perilous Night (1944) prepared piano
Root of an Unfocus (1944) prepared piano
Crete (1944) piano
Dad (1944) piano
Prelude for Meditation (1944) prepared piano
A Valentine Out of Season (1944) prepared piano
Three Dances (1945) for two prepared pianos
Daughters of the Lonesome Isle (1945) prepared piano
Lidice (1945) piano
Soliloquy (1945) piano
Thin Cry (1945) piano
Experiences I (1945-48) two pianos
Experiences II (1945-48) voice
Mysterious Adventure (1945) prepared piano
Ophelia (1946) piano
Two Pieces for Piano (1946)
The Encounter (1946) piano
Foreboding (1946) piano
The Feast (1946) piano
Music for "Dreams That Money Can Buy" (1946) prepared piano
Prelude for 6 Instruments in A Minor (1946)
Orestes (1946) piano
Sonatas and Interludes (1946-48) prepared piano
Music for Marcel Duchamp (1947) prepared piano
Nocturne for Violin and Piano (1947)
The Seasons, a Ballet in One Act (1947) orchestra
Dream (1948) piano or viola
In a Landscape (1948) harp or piano
Suite for Toy Piano (1948)
A Flower (1950) voice and closed piano
Music for "Works of Calder" (1950) prepared piano and recorded sounds
Six Melodies for Violin and Keyboard (Piano) (1950)
String Quartet in Four Parts (1950)
Haikus (1950-51) piano
Concerto for Prepared Piano and Chamber Orchestra (1951)
Music of Changes (1951) piano
Imaginary Landscape No.4 (March No.2) (1951) 12 radios
Sixteen Dances (1951)
Two Pastorales (1951) prepared piano and two whistles
Seven Haiku (1951-52) piano
For M.C. and D.T. (1952) piano
4'33" (1952) piano or any instrument
Imaginary Landscape No.5 (1952) tape
Music for Carillon No.1 (1952)
Music for Piano 1 (1952)
Seven Haiku (1952) piano
Wating (1952) piano
Water Music (1952) piano, radio, whistles, water, deck of cards
Williams Mix (1952) tape
59.5" For a String Player (1953)
Music for Piano 2, 3, and 20 (1953)
Music for Piano 4-19 (1953)
Music for Carillon No.2 (1954)
Music for Carillon No.3 (1954) [No.2 performed backwards]
31'57.9864" for a Pianist (1954)
34'46.776" For a Pianist (1954)
45' for a Speaker (1954)
26'1.1499" For a String Player (1955)
Music for Piano 21-36; 37-52 (1955)
Speech (1955) 5 radios and speaker
27'10.554" For a Percussionist (1956)
Music For Piano 53-68 (1956)
Music For Piano 69-84 (1956)
Radio Music (1956) one to eight radios
For Paul Taylor and Anita Dencks (1957) piano interior or other instruments
Winter Music (1957) paino
Concert for Piano and Ochestra (1957-58)
Fontana Mix (1958) tape or any instrument
Aria (1958) voice and other instruments
Communication (1958) speaker
Music Walk (1958) piano(s) and radios or recordings
Solo for Voice (1958)
TV Koeln (1958) piano
Variations I (1958) any instruments
Sounds of Venice (1959) tv's and tapes; bells, boat horns, and a toy
that meows like a cat
Water Walk (1959) tv and tape; mechanical fish, duck call, bathtub, etc
Indetermancy (1959) voice, piano and tape (or stuff)
Cartridge Music (1960) stuff
Duet for Cymbal (1960)
Piano Duet (1960)
Music for Amplified Toy Pianos (1960)
Music for "The Marrying Maiden" (1960) tape and stuff
Solo for Voice 2 (1960)
Theatre Piece (1960)
WBAI (1960) machines
Where Are We Going? And What Are We Doing? (1960) tapes and voice
Atlas Eclipticalis (1961-62) orchestra and perhaps electronics
Music for Carilon No.4 (1961)
Lecture on Commitment (1961) voice
Variations II (1961)
0'00" (4'33" No.2) (1962) amplified non-musical action(s)
Variations III (1962-63)
Variations IV (1963)
Electronic Music for Piano (1964) piano and electronics
Rozart Mix (1965) tape
Variations V (1965)
Variations VI (1966)
Variations VII (1966)
Music For Carillon No.5 (1967)
Musicirus (1967) event
Newport Mix (1967) tape
Reunion (1968) electronics and chess board gate
Mewantemooseicday (1969) event
33 1/3 (1969) 12 turntables
HPSCHD (1969) tape and/or event
Sound Anonymously Recieved (1969) any instruments
Cheap Imitation (1969) piano
Mureau (1970) voice
Song Books: Vols I and II (1970) voice
Sixty-Two Mesostics Re Merce Cunningham (1971) voice
WGBH-TV (1971) composer and technicians
Program (KNOBS) for listener (1971)
Les chants de Maldoror pulverises par l'assistance meme (1971) french
crowd of not more than 200
Demonstration of the Sounds of the Environment (1971)
Cheap Imitation (1972) orchestra
Bird Cage (1972) tapes
Etcetera (1) (1973) 20 musicians and tape
Exercise (1973-84) orchestra
Empty Words (1973-78) voice
Etudes Australes I, II, and VIII (1974) piano
Score (40 Drawings by Thoreau) and 23 Parts (for any instruments
and/or voices): Twelve Haiku followed by a Recording of the
Dawn at Stony Point, New York, August 6, 1974 (1974)
Two Pieces for Piano (1974/1934)
Lecture on the Weather (1975)
Child of Tree (1975) amplified plant materials
Branches (1976) amplified plant materials
Imitations II (1976) clarinet
Quartest I-VIII (for 24 Instruments) (1976)
Renga with Apartment House 1776 (1976) orchestra and 4 vocalists
Inlets (1977) conch shells, water, tape
Writing Through Finnegans Wake (1977)
Cheap Imitation (1977) violin
Telephones and Birds (1977) 3 performers, recordings and telephone
announcements
49 Waltzes (1977) indeterminate organtic materials
Alla Ricerca del Silenzio Perduto (1977) tape and microphone
Freeman Etudes (1977-90) violin
Variation VII (1978)
Chorales (1978) violin
Pools (1978) conch shells and tape
Letter to Erik Satie (1978) voice and tape
Il Treno (1978) 3 happenings for prepared trains
Someday/Sounday (1978) 10-hour radio event
A Dip in the Lake: Ten Quicksteps, Sixty-two Waltzes, and Fifty-six
Marches for Chicago and Vicinity (1978)
Writing for the Second Time Through Finnrgan's Wake (1977)
Some of "The Harmony of Maine" (Supply Belcher) (1978) organ
Etudes Boreales for Cello Solo and for Piano Solo I-IV (1978)
Roaratorio: An Irish Circus on Finnegans Wake (1979) voice, tape,
Irish musicians
Paragraphs of Fresh Air (1979) radio
Dialog (1979) conductors
J.Joyce,M.Duchamp,E.Satie:an Alphabet (1979) text with divisions
Concerto Grosso for 4 TV Sets and 12 Radios (1979)
Hymns and Variations (1979) chorus
Silent Environment (1979) instalation
Furniture Music Etcetera (1980) 2 pianos
Improvisation No.3 (1980)
Litany for the Whale (1980) 2 voices
Thirty Pieces for Five Orchestras (1981)
Evene/Environne METZment (1981) audience
49 Waltzes for the Five Boroughs (1981) piano
A House Full of Music (1982) students
Fifteen Domestic Minutes (1982) letters and radio
Dance/4 Orchestras (1982)
Writing Through the Cantos of Ezra Pound (1982)
Improvisation IV (1982)
Writing Through Kafka's Die Verwandlung (1983)
Thirty Pieces for String Quartet (1983)
John Cage Meets Sun Ra (1983) 2 avant-garde goofballs
ear for EAR (Antiphonies) text without words for single voice
Improvisation No.4 (1983)
Postcard from Heaven (1983) 1-20 harps
Souvenir (1983) organ
HMCIEX (1983-84) game of listening
Ryoanji: Solos for Oboe, Flute, Contrabass, Voice, Trombone with
Percussion or Orchestral Obbligato (1983-85)
Music for Five (1984)
Thirty Movements (1984) quartet
Writing Through Duchamp's Notes (1984)
Mirakus^2 (1984) voice
Selkus^2 (1984) voice
Nowth Upon Nacht (1984) voice and closed piano
Perpetual Tango (1984) piano
A Collection of Rocks (1984) choir and orchestra
Eight Whiskus (1984) voice
Improvisation (1984) ensemble
Musicircus for Children (1984) for many small soundmakers
Music For ________ (1984-87)
Sonnekus^2 (1985) voice
Writing Through On The Duty of Civil Disobedience (1985)
ASLSP (1985) piano
But What About the Noise of Crumpling Paper Which He Used to Do in
Order to Paint the Series of "Papiers Froisses" or Tearing Up
Paper to Make "Papiers Dechires?" Arp Was Stimulated by Water
(Sea, Lake, and Flowing Waters Like Rivers), Forests (1985)
stuff
Voiceless Essays (1985-87) 18 cassette players
Hymnkus (1986) alto flute, clarinet, bassoon, trombone, 2 pianos
Haikai (1986) gamelan
Thirteen Harmonies (1986) violin and keyboard
Rocks (1986) percussion
Wishing Well (1986) 4 speakers
Etcetera 2/4 Orchestras (1986)
Essay (1987) computer generated tape
Two (1987) piano and flute
One (1987) piano
Empty Mind (1987) text for a game of listening
Europeras 1 & 2 (1987) 19 singers, 21 musicians, tape
Truckera (1987) tape for Europeras
Organ/ASLPL (1987) organ
Three Composed Improvisations (1987) drums or bass guitar
Five Stone Wind (1988) drums
Five (1988) any instruments or voices
Twenty-Three (1988) orchestra
101 (1988)
Anarchy (1988)
I-VI (1988) voice
Seven (1988) flute, clarinet, percussion, piano, violin, viola and cello
Two^2 (1989) 2 pianos, 4 hands
Three (1989) 3 recorders
Four (1989) string quartet
Swinging (1989) piano
Sculpures Musicales (1989) 4 performers with electronic instruments
Stufen: an Autoku for Siegfried Unseld (1989) voice
Twenty-Three (1989) 15 violins, 5 violas, 5 cellos
Scottish Circus (1990)
Europera 3 (1989) 6 singers, 2 pianos, 12 victrolas, tape
One^2 (1990) piano
One^3 (1990)
Four^2 (1990) chorus
Europera 4 (1989) 2 singers, 1 piano, tape
One^4 (1990) percussion
One^6 (1990) violin
Fourteen (1990) ensemble
Seven^2 (1990) bass flute, bass clarinet, bass trombone, two
percussionists, cello and contrabass
Haikai (1990) flute and zoomoozophone
The Beatles 1962-1970 (1990) tape of pianos
One^8 (1991) cello
One^9 (1991) sho
Two^3 (1991) sho and conch shell
Two^4 (1991) sho and ? (maybe piano and flute???)
Two^5 (1991) trombone and piano
Three^2 (1991) 3 percussionists
Four^3 (1991) 2 pianos, violin (or oscillator), and rainsticks
Four^4 (1991) percussion
Four^5 (1991) 4 saxophones
Five^2 (1991) ensemble
Five^3 (1991) trombone and quarteto d'archi
Five^4 (1991) 2 saxophones and 3 percussions
Five^5 (1991) ensemble
Six (1991) percussion
Ten (1991) chamber ensemble
103 (1991) orchestra
108 for Large Orchestra (1991)
Five Hanau silence (1991)
Europera 5 (1991) 2 voices, piano, victrola, tape
Twenty-Six (1991) 26 violins
Twenty-Eight (1991) ensemble
Twenty-Nine (1991) ensemble
One^9 (1992) voice
One^10 (1992) cello
One^11 (1992) film
Two^6 (1992) violin and piano
Four^6 (1992) 4 performers
Thirteen (1992) ensemble
Fifty-Eight (1992) ensemble
Sixty-Eight (1992) orchestra
Seventy-Four (1992) orchestra
Eighty (1992) orchestra
Otte (1992) violin
Muoyce No.2 (1992) text and 6 tapes
------------------------------
From: Douglas Cohen <douglas@tmn.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 16:31:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: More on Feldman and notation
On Mon, 10 Apr 1995, Tim Knight wrote:
>
> Douglas, are the recordings of these lectures readily available? Where
> could I find a copy of them? Thanks.
>
Sorry to take so long to respond (I was away last week).
Unfortunately, most of the lectures that have been recorded are *not*
available yet. There is a festival every summer in Middleberg, Holland
where Feldman taught and someone did transcribe all the lectures he gave
there. For some reason, however, the final editing hasn't been made so
they haven't been released. (I saw a transcript of one of the lectures
and it was edited much better than the transcripts Zimmerman published in
"Essays.")
The publishers of RES also have more material which they hope to publish
but so far no one has gotten around to doing that.
The California EAR Unit is finishing a CD of "For Philip Guston" which
will include (or so I've been told) the recording of the opening remarks
Feldman made about the piece when the work was performed at CalArts as
part of the Feldman 60th birthday celebrations. Last I heard, this
should be out in the next few months.
------------------------------
From: David P Miller <dpmiller@world.std.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 21:00:06 +0059 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cage listing
On Mon, 17 Apr 1995, Bartok wrote:
> I could really use a (hopefully) complete list of Cage's works.
>
Just so we don't reinvent the wheel. C.F. Peters is the publisher of
Cage's musical scores. They have a separate catalog of his works which
they'll probably send you for free. Call 212-686-4147.
This only includes works published as musical scores, but it's very
extensive. It doesn't include a bibliography of published writings, and
here the question would be, who knows if there's anything purporting to
be a complete bibliography of writings, interviews, etc.? Not to mention
audio/video recordings.
And I still wonder if anyone's heard of anything like a catalogue
raisonne of his visual art works, or if there's anything in process like
that.
But for a catalogue of his published music, just call Peters.
David
dpmiller@world.std.com
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 19:01:10 -0400
Subject: Reply no. 1: procedures and sounds
S. Smoliar states that:
>I agree that the sounds are very tightly coupled to the procedures; but, at
>the end of the day, one does not perceive procedures. Rather one perceives
>sounds. . . .
This makes no sense to me. Cage, in composing a piece, made procedures and
tried them out. If the sounds were not what he was after, he changed the
procedures until they produced the piece he was trying to make. This is where
I decide that talking about procedures as if they were independent of sounds
is to ignore the act of composition. There is no way to listen to Cage's music
without hearing the procedure -- how else do you think it got there?
Now then, what you don't hear is the actual gears grinding away;
but then this has
never been my experience of music -- to hear rules and syntax is to hear a
theory exercise.
I would never associate rhetoric with Cage's music.
Cage's music is decidedly not language-oriented
(even his >writing< is not language-oriented!).
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 19:02:56 -0400
Subject: Reply no. 2: Against discourse
S. Smoliar states:
> Discourse is about sharing of mental state
> among some collection of human beings; and, as if often the case, satisfactory
> sharing arises from negotiation. We throw out our words and see how they are
> received. If our expectations are satisfied, we throw out some more the same
> way; if they are not, we fish around with what we get back and work out a way
> to try again. Discourse is all about EXCHANGE, rather than DECODING.
Allow me to elaborate on my aversion to "discourse" -- this make take some
space . . .
It strikes me that the nature of artistry is to make things
(music, poems, whatever).
Exchanging or discoursing is irrelevant; you make what you have to make and then
go on to the next thing. My feeling is that discussion of
musical experience in the
case of the works of Cage or Feldman, etc. ultimately must
tend to the artistic, and
hence go "beyond wordy discourse"
(to borrow, inappropriately perhaps, from Zen).
What bothers me is the notion that this is an
arrogant or anti-social posture --
that unless everyone can weigh in on what you say --
argue about it, question it, etc. -- then no sort of
useful or rich communication can
take place. What if I just make a thing that
in some way illuminates Cage's work?
Do I have to defend it? If you don't get what I
say, is it invalid? If you don't get it
and someone else does, do the two of you cancel each other out?
I have no agenda, I seek no agreement, I don't
want to exchange anything. I tell
stories, if you will -- this is the essence of writing.
But I have no interest at
all in explaining music. This is where dealing with Feldman takes you on a
different trip that dealing with Cage. Cage's procedures beg for explanation,
and it can be done quite nicely. Feldman's music very successfully defends
itself from explanation. What are you going to do then? You can't explain
music, only musical procedures or musical history, or musical theories. These
things may in fact be useful or interesting,
but they are not musical experience.
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
------------------------------
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 19:47:37 +0800
Subject: Sounds/Procedures/Experience
I want to pick up on Mark Kolmar's reply to me and try to elaborate on it
(perhaps also expalining my position better to James Pritchett in the process):
>> Consider works like MUSIC OF CHANGES or the star chart
>> compositions.
>
>As I recall, the score for Music of Changes is notated completely, in
>great detail. Every parameter was determined by chance operations, in an
>effort to remove the ego of the composer from the music.
This is exactly why I chose MUSIC OF CHANGES as an example.
> Cage then hands
>this set of instructions to the performer in the form of a score. Is the
>performer to superimpose his/her ego onto the score, or to follow the
>score as exactly as possible?
>
>I suspect the answer is somewhere in-between, but leaning toward
>following the score exactly. The composer's non-intention does not give
>extra latitude to the performer. But neither does it mean the performer
>must slavishly adhere to the score exactly as written.
>
I am willing to start with the assumption that the only "performer" that can
"adhere to the score exactly as written" is a machine. Man, by his very human
nature, forms perceptual categories. He forms them in what he hears, and he
forms them in the sounds he makes for others to hear. He forms them as part
of the process of making those sounds. None of this precludes following the
composer's instructions, no matter how thorough they are.
Let me argue by anecdote again. As an undergraduate mathematics major, I was
taken by a newspaper story of some individual who had memorized pi to some
record-breaking number of digits. When interviewed for this story, he claimed
that he approached the recitation as a performance and tended to think of the
sequence of digits he was reciting as being sort of like a fugue. In
retrospect I find this very interesting, if not appropriate. After all,
if one does not perceive pattern in consecutive digits, one may perceive
it across intervals of digits and then perceive the digits crossing those
intervals as being common to a single "voice." I am not saying that this
is what this particular guy did. I am just making the case that he imposed
perceptual pattern on a string of digits which, by its very mathematical
nature, defies perceptual categorization.
This is what I was trying to get at in the following passages which Mark
quoted:
>> I would further argue that the only way one can achieve this approach is to
>> figure out how to LISTEN to this music as prerequisite to PLAYING it (just
>> as is the case with so many other piano compositions).[...]
>>
>> Time is segmented into gestures and phrases. Those gestures and
>> phrases are not as "intuitively obvious" as they may be when we hear them
>> (and immediately recognize them as gestures and phrases) in Mozart; but
>> they are there.[...]
>>
Now I do not deny Mark's rebuttal:
> The listener is perfectly capable of doing this
>him/herself.
After all, if presented with a machine performance, the listener would still
form perceptual categories from the listening experience. However, the
performer as a listener, too; and I would argue that preparation for
performance benefits from getting the PATTERNS OF SOUND (whatever they
may be) into one's head whence they emerge as PATTERNS OF PHYSICAL EXECUTION.
This does NOT imply that any listener need hear the same patterns from that
performance. Indeed, I suppose one of the critical technical exercises is
to keep those patterns from imposing themselves too much on the listener;
but there is no denying that patterns are there for every listener.
At this point I suppose we can follow Jamey's lead with an oblique reference to
Feldman's voice: Why patterns? This may sound a bit naive; but, following up
on the arguments which form the basis of Gerald Edelman's THE REMEMBERED
PRESENT, the answer is that patterns are the stuff that mind (or, perhaps,
more strictly, consciousness) is made of. Now it is all very well and good
to talk about removing the (conscious) self from acts of composing, performing,
and listening; but, at the end of the day, that can never be more than an
ideal to which we aspire. As long as we are making conscious choices, the
self is always with us; so, rather than strike a strong philosophical pose
about denying it, all we can do is live with putting it in its place. To each
his own patterns, as he is ENTITLED.
Stephen W. Smoliar (smoliar@iss.nus.sg); Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace; Kent Ridge
SINGAPORE 0511; Tel: +65-772-3350; FAX: +65-473-9897
------------------------------
From: Olivia_MATTIS@umail.umd.edu (om4)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 11:16 EDT
Subject: Re: Re: Sounds/Procedures/Experience
To the list:
Could I issue a plea that people posting to this list sign their full names?
Some subscribers have coded nicknames or userids, making identification of
the sender difficult.
Many thanks.
Olivia Mattis
University of Maryland at College Park
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 18:59:24 -0400
Subject: Music of Changes
I have no doubt whatsoever that Cage meant for the score of Music of Changes
to be followed literally in every detail. David Tudor's copy (as I think
I indicated somewhere else in this list) has precise timings for every single
measure. And, in John's words, "David Tudor, at that time, WAS the music
of changes." That Tudor could not play to a precision of five decimal
places in every performance is wholly irrelevant -- John's vision of the
piece was that precise. There's that caveat in the score about impossible
situations being handled at the performer's discretion, but that is not
what it seems (namely, an opening of the whole score to performer decisions).
Indeterminacy was not a term in Cage's vocabulary in 1951 at the time the
music of changes was written.
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.Princeton.edu
------------------------------
From: Myron Bennett <mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:27:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Sounds/Procedures/Experience
Without advocating a position, I relate that back in the '60s, after
a performance by the Merce Cunningham Dancers with music played on
pianos by Cage and Tudor, John said that it often happened that after
playing one piece over a period of time, he and Tudor began to hear
melodies in the piece, and so they wanted to move to a different piece.
Hmmmmmmm.
- --
Myron Bennett mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net or mbennett@iglou.com
"Until about ten years ago I wrote often about music. I no
longer do. The writing was usually polemical in content. In recent
years I do not want to argue with talent. I want to be thankful for
it regardless from where it comes."
--- Morton Feldman (1975)
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 19:42:21 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Chyron: JOHN CAGE help
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>From: Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
>Subject: Chyron: JOHN CAGE help
>Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 11:25:51 -0500
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>
>Saw this on rec.music.industrial and thought I'd pass it on in case
>someone can help...
>
>== Seth Tisue <s-tisue@anl.gov>
>
>>
>------- Forwarded Message
>
>Xref: uchinews rec.music.industrial:74053
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>From: chyron@aol.com (Chyron)
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>Subject: JOHN CAGE help
>Date: 21 Apr 1995 11:48:09 -0400
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>
>Could someone please tell me which John Cage albums the following works
>appear on ?:
>
>"Tread"
>"Inventions"
>"Place"
>"Variations V "
>"Exchange"
>"Rain Forest"
>"Walk Around Time"
>
>Any info. will be *greatly* appreciated!
>
>Thanx!
- ------- End of Forwarded Message
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:37:23 EST
Subject: emendations to works list
With Josh Ronsen's recent re-posting of his list, I am reminded that I
promised to update parts of it in the hope that it will be posted to
Joseph Zitt's Cage homepage. (I had been recently working on a non-Cage
project which had taken my attention away.)
I have been thinking of certain issues with the list, in particular pieces
which are known to have existed, and possibly await rediscovery, but at
the present, do not exist in any form. Something tells me that these
should be identified as such, and possibly put in a separate appendix.
There is at least one piece that's probably spurious, but we'll get to
that soon.
I forgot where I had left off, so I'll begin in 1934.
> Six Short Inventions (1934)
This was a separate entry in the original list, and I think Josh corrected
it to be subsumed under the full entry of: "Solo with obbligato
accompaniment of two voices in canon, and six short inventions on the
subjects of the solo."
> Music for Xenia (1934) piano
The location of this work is unknown.
> Counterpoint (1934) piano
The Cage estate does not list any such work. I wonder if this is identical
to the counterpoint exercises composed under Schoenberg's instruction,
now part of the David Tudor materials at the Getty Museum. If so, the
date would be 1935-37 (acc. to Cage estate).
> Allemande (1934) clarinet
The location of this work is unknown.
> Three Pieces for Flute Duet (1935)
There is also supposed to be a "Duet for two flutes" (1934).
Unfortunately the location of the manuscript of this work is unknown.
This is supposedly not the same as the Three Pieces for Flute duet.
> Quest (1935) piano
The manuscript states "second movement" even though no other movements seem
to be around. Thus, most references to this work include the reference to
its being only the second movement.
So that gets me up to 1936. One of the works listed for this year is the
Marriage at the Eiffel tower. That's the date Cage wrote (obviously at a
different time) on the manuscript - and I'm sure it's wrong; it should be
1939 - but I'll write more about this when I get to 1939.
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music
Librarian
Graduate Center
Music Division
City University of New York
The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
bkosovsky@nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions-------
------------------------------
From: Josh Ronsen <rons@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 17:19:37 -0500
Subject: List of Works corrections/Song Books
Thanks to Bob Kosovsky for his detailed comments/corrections to the list
of
works I compiled. I have a question for those who are interested in the
list or future versions of it: for pieces that aren't published or that
are lost, should I notate these as being such? Should I list my sources
of where I read about these works? Such things are not really of use to me,
personally, but if there is a desire for the list to include such info
I would be glad to include it.
Are there any recordings of the complete, or near-complete Song Books. I
have heard a couple of the individual solos, but would really like to
hear the collection as a whole.
Thanks for any info,
Josh Ronsen
rons@midway.uchicago.edu
------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Myron Bennett <mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 20:07:47 -0400
Subject: Procedures and all that
Apparently the message I sent on 4/22 was not sent to the list, but only
(I assume) to the writer of a message I hit the "reply to" key for. Anyway,
it's about the discussion that has been going off on various tangents.
Here it is again (and if EVERYONE already got it except me), my apologies.
*****************
On this topic, though it has been thorougly discussed almost to the
point of exhaustion, I feel compelled to add my diffuse thoughts.
And those thoughts go back to Jamey Pritchett's note of some week or
so ago, and this paragraph:
>.............. fear that writing about musical experience is
>a losing proposition; I think only something that has the character of
>poetry would be worthwhile, and then it would be so personal and artistic
>that it would be useless for the purpose of "discourse" (hallelujah).
>I find myself drawn in this direction, but have no clue as to where I'm
>going.
That led me to thinking about of two examples of writing about music which
approach the state of poetry. First, just about any and all of the jazz
writing by Whitney Balliet (sp?) in the New Yorker over many years. Though
he was mostly describing the performances, his metaphor and simile filled
paragraphs did, to these eyes, a wonderful job of evoking the experience of
seeing and hearing the performances, and (again, to me) somehow captured
the spirit and essence of the music.
The second is something I read more recently; in fact, a writing by
Pritchett, found on his home page, titled, "Instead of separation, a sense of
space." The first paragraphs, describing not music, but "a remarkable
acoustic situation," seem to me to capture a very important part of the
essence of Cage. (HTTP://www.music.princeton.edu:80/~jwp)
So it seems to me that an approach to poetry is a path worth exploring. (The
oft-quoted dictum, "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" is
valid enough, but perhaps poetry about either might be more successful.)
I now descend to more random and half-formed thoughts on other parts
of the discussion, without citations.
There are dangers in very subjective writing about music, because each person
hears different things in music. In the extreme examples, those blessed (or
cursed) with synaesthesia, who see colors in music, or who detect odors while
listening, can never communicate to those of us without that facility what it
is that they experience. My late wife said that she saw choreography when
listening to music (and she was a singer, not a dancer.)
Another danger is the phenomenon which became so prevalent in the 19th
Century, of seeing everything as program music (Moonlight sonata as an
obvious example, but more, music criticism being mostly trying to find
the literary meaning of everything.)
I see I am drifting, so I will leave on that anti-climactic note.
- --
Myron Bennett mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net or mbennett@iglou.com
"Until about ten years ago I wrote often about music. I no
longer do. The writing was usually polemical in content. In recent
years I do not want to argue with talent. I want to be thankful for
it regardless from where it comes."
--- Morton Feldman (1975)
------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 15:31:21 EST
Subject: emendations to list: 1940
Before I start, I made a terrible mistake in the last posting - it was e.e.
cummings, NOT Gertrude Stein, who is the author of the texts for Five Songs for
Contralto (1938).
I have been using the order of Josh's list, but I think it could be re-arranged
so that within each year, the works appear alphabetically.
>Bacchanale (1938/40)
No problem
>Living Room Music: A Story (1940) stuff and voice [Stein]
The title of this work is just: Living Room Music.
This work is in three movements: To Begin, Story, Melody. The 1st and 3rd
movements (To Begin, and Melody) do not have text. The 2nd movement, Story, has
a text by Gertrude Stein (anyone know the source?). It is scored for 4
unspecified percussionists.
This brings up a problem - the specifications of instruments. Cage's music
obviously runs the gamut from works where a particular instrument is specified,
to where the specification is for the performer of the work. If one were to
modify the above specification to "percussion and voice" it would imply that
there are singers and percussionists - when in fact it is the percussionists
who are using their voice. This becomes rather complex with later works -
when one has to make a distinction between the person performing and the
materials that s/he may or may not be using.
>Second Construction (1940)
No problem.
>Four Songs of the Moment (1940) piano
>Instances of Silence (1940)
The manuscript locations of these works are unknown. In addition there's
another work in this "missing" category: America was promises (1940) as
well as the Spiritual (1940) which was mentioned earlier.
>Fads and Fancies in the Academy (1940) piano and percussion
No problem.
Not on Josh's list is a deceptively familiar-sounding work:
Imaginary Landscape no. 2 (1940)
This NOT the same work as the Imaginary Landscape no. 2 (March no. 1) of 1942.
To identify the different works I've been using dates.
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music
Librarian
Graduate Center
Music Division
City University of New York
The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
bkosovsky@nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions-------
------------------------------
From: Mark Kolmar <mkolmar@ccs.nslsilus.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 19:29:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sounds/Procedures/Experience
Because of the amount of time that has passed between posts, I include
more quotations than usual to establish context.
On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, Stephen Smoliar wrote:
I had written, in part:
> > Cage then hands
> >this set of instructions to the performer in the form of a score. Is the
> >performer to superimpose his/her ego onto the score, or to follow the
> >score as exactly as possible?
> >
> >I suspect the answer is somewhere in-between, but leaning toward
> >following the score exactly. The composer's non-intention does not give
> >extra latitude to the performer. But neither does it mean the performer
> >must slavishly adhere to the score exactly as written.
> >
Stephen Smoliar replied:
> I am willing to start with the assumption that the only "performer" that can
> "adhere to the score exactly as written" is a machine.
Cage was asked if he would ever, for example, program a piece into a
Synclavier. He said no. This says that Cage would not have wanted even
the most exactly notated score to be played with mechanical or
computerized precision. Or perhaps this merely reflects a level of
technofear, which can afflict even the most open minds.
> Man, by his very human
> nature, forms perceptual categories. He forms them in what he hears, and he
> forms them in the sounds he makes for others to hear. He forms them as part
> of the process of making those sounds. None of this precludes following the
> composer's instructions, no matter how thorough they are.
Cage used a method for this piece in which he deliberately eliminated the
opportunity for his own ego to enter the process of composition, beyond
Cage having devised the method to begin with. Even to the extent that the
performer creates perceptual categories in his/her own mind while
rehearsing and performing, s/he could also strive to not allow these
biases to enter the performance. Rather, the performer could simply
- -listen- as one person while -playing- as another, allowing him/herself to
be performer and audience.
> This is what I was trying to get at in the following passages which Mark
> quoted:
>
> >> I would further argue that the only way one can achieve this approach is to
> >> figure out how to LISTEN to this music as prerequisite to PLAYING it (just
> >> as is the case with so many other piano compositions).[...]
> >>
> >> Time is segmented into gestures and phrases. Those gestures and
> >> phrases are not as "intuitively obvious" as they may be when we hear them
> >> (and immediately recognize them as gestures and phrases) in Mozart; but
> >> they are there.[...]
> >>
> Now I do not deny Mark's rebuttal:
>
> > The listener is perfectly capable of doing this
> >him/herself.
>
> After all, if presented with a machine performance, the listener would still
> form perceptual categories from the listening experience. However, the
> performer as a listener, too; and I would argue that preparation for
> performance benefits from getting the PATTERNS OF SOUND (whatever they
> may be) into one's head whence they emerge as PATTERNS OF PHYSICAL EXECUTION.
> This does NOT imply that any listener need hear the same patterns from that
> performance. Indeed, I suppose one of the critical technical exercises is
> to keep those patterns from imposing themselves too much on the listener;
> but there is no denying that patterns are there for every listener.
I have to ask a question here: Would a performer generally attempt to
perform a work like "Music of Changes" from memory, as is often the case
for, say, a Beethoven Piano Sonata? If so, I can see where this would
absolutely require that the performer divide the piece into perceptual
catagories for accurate storage and retrieval.
This for me is enough reason to not approach a work like "Music of
Changes" this way. Doing so would almost certainly result in the
performer imposing these patterns during performance, whether consciously
or not. To my mind it is not a question of keeping those patterns from
imposing themselves "too much" on the listener; it is a matter of those
patterns -not- imposing themselves, as much as this can be avoided. This
gives the listener the greatest perceptual freedom. In Mahler, the
essence of the music requires the conductor and performers to shape
gestures, phrases and segments. In Cage's "Music of Changes" I believe it
is essential for the performer to shape these as little as possible, and
allow the listener to form them in his/her own mind.
>
> At this point I suppose we can follow Jamey's lead with an oblique reference to
> Feldman's voice: Why patterns? This may sound a bit naive; but, following up
> on the arguments which form the basis of Gerald Edelman's THE REMEMBERED
> PRESENT, the answer is that patterns are the stuff that mind (or, perhaps,
> more strictly, consciousness) is made of. Now it is all very well and good
> to talk about removing the (conscious) self from acts of composing, performing,
> and listening; but, at the end of the day, that can never be more than an
> ideal to which we aspire.
So if the ideal I suggest may remain only that, the performer may still
aspire to the ideal, even with the full realization that this ideal will
not be achieved.
> As long as we are making conscious choices, the
> self is always with us; so, rather than strike a strong philosophical pose
> about denying it, all we can do is live with putting it in its place. To each
> his own patterns, as he is ENTITLED.
I do not suggest that the performer needs to perform a work like "Music of
Changes" mechanically or unfeelingly. Only that the performer should not
make conscious choices which the score does not ask for.
You bring up Feldman above. Feldman's compositions and the methods he
used to create them are much more intuitive and subconscious, in contrast
to Cage's chance methods. I don't think that in any way Feldman was
trying to remove his ego from the composition, or to remove the
performer's ego from the performance. Indeed, Feldman sometimes wrote
with specific performers in mind.
But then so did Cage sometimes write with David Tudor in mind. But
perhaps he was looking for the the transparency that Tudor could achieve.
Rather than Feldman looking for the character which those players would be
able to bring to his compositions, based on their working relationship and
the performers' understanding of his aesthetic.
If Cage's philosophy would strive toward "not a search for meaning, but an
attention to the activities of sounds" (in which the listener need not
hear these unfeelingly), I suspect Feldman was after something
subjectively, intuitively crafted and poignant. Perhaps instead, to turn
Cage's words (or a close paraphrase) around, "a search for unknowable
meaning through the attention to the activities of sounds".
------------------------------
From: David P Miller <dpmiller@world.std.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 22:41:46 +0059 (EDT)
Subject: Living Room Music text
The Gertrude Stein text for this piece is from her children's book, _The
World is Round_, originally published in 1939. In fact, it's the first
sentence in the book.
David
dpmiller@world.std.com
------------------------------
From: Myron Bennett <mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:15:07 -0400
Subject: Writing about music .... some thoughts
On this topic, though it has been thorougly discussed almost to the
point of exhaustion, I feel compelled to add my diffuse thoughts.
And those thoughts go back to Jamey Pritchett's note of some week or
so ago, and this paragraph:
>..............I fear that writing about musical experience is
>a losing proposition; I think only something that has the character of
>poetry would be worthwhile, and then it would be so personal and artistic
>that it would be useless for the purpose of "discourse" (hallelujah).
>I find myself drawn in this direction, but have no clue as to where I'm
>going.
That led me to thinking about of two examples of writing about music which
approach the state of poetry. First, just about any and all of the jazz
writing by Whitney Balliet (sp?) in the New Yorker over many years. Though
he was mostly describing the performances, his metaphor and simile filled
paragraphs did, to these eyes, a wonderful job of evoking the experience of
seeing and hearing the performances, and (again, to me) somehow captured
the spirit and essence of the music.
The second is something I read more recently; in fact, a writing by
Pritchett, found on his home page, titled, "Instead of separation, a sense of
space." The first paragraphs, describing not music, but "a remarkable
acoustic situation," seem to me to capture a very important part of the
essence of Cage. (HTTP://www.music.princeton.edu:80/~jwp)
So it seems to me that an approach to poetry is a path worth exploring. (The
oft-quoted dictum, "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" is
valid enough, but perhaps poetry about either might be more successful.)
I now descend to more random and half-formed thoughts on other parts
of the discussion, without citations.
There are dangers in very subjective writing about music, because each person
hears different things in music. In the extreme examples, those blessed (or
cursed) with synaesthesia, who see colors in music, or who detect odors while
listening, can never communicate to those of us without that facility what it
is that they experience. My late wife said that she saw choreography when
listening to music (and she was a singer, not a dancer.)
Another danger is the phenomenon which became so prevalent in the 19th
Century, of seeing everything as program music (Moonlight sonata as an
obvious example, but more, music criticism being mostly trying to find
the literary meaning of everything.)
I see I am drifting, so I will leave on that anti-climactic note.
- --
Myron Bennett mbennett@tso.cin.ix.net or mbennett@iglou.com
"Until about ten years ago I wrote often about music. I no
longer do. The writing was usually polemical in content. In recent
years I do not want to argue with talent. I want to be thankful for
it regardless from where it comes."
--- Morton Feldman (1975)
------------------------------
From: Douglas Cohen <douglas@tmn.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:40:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Announcing NewMus MusicNet - a journal of experimental music
Greetings Joseph!
Following is an announcement of a project which I'm involved with which I
thought would be of interest to readers of the Cage list. Is it okay if
I post it to silence@bga.com?
I also wanted to let you know that the members of Arts Wire's NewMusNet
Conference voted to link your home page for the Cage list to their home
page. <http://www.tmn.com/0h/Artswire/www/NewMusNet/mus_res.html>
Thanks for starting the Cage list. It's one of the best music
discussions on the internet!
Best,
Doug Cohen
__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________
ANNOUNCING NEWMUS MUSICNET
A journal of experimental music
NewMus MusicNet is an on-line journal of new and experimental
music published under the auspices of the NewMusNet conference
of Arts Wire.
NewMus MusicNet strives to present the finest experimental
works of our time as well as writings and/or interviews with
such composers. Modeled after Henry Cowell's Great
Depression Era quarterly "New Music," our main purpose is to
identify and distribute the most recent experimental music
which by its very newness often remains unpublished by
traditional means.
NewMus MusicNet is issued tri-quarterly, in April, October and
February. It is available through the NewMusNet World Wide
Web home page at the following URL:
http://www.tmn.com/0h/Artswire/www/NewMusNet/nmnhome.html
NewMus MusicNet welcomes submissions for consideration from
music experimenters all over world. Works in the ultra modern
idiom may be sent by anonymous ftp to:
ftp://ftp.tmn.com/NewMusJournal/NMJ_Submissions
Email douglas@tmn.com for guidelines.
------------------------------
From: "DR. BENWAY'S LAB ASSISTANT" <NAUMANN@Butler.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 10:30:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 0'0"
>a conceptual gag,...........
>The writer of these words perhaps needs or perhaps does not need to know
>that the words 'conceptual gag' refer to his own maturation process as a
>creative artist. The sooner this does or does not occur, the sooner he
>will discover whether this work does or does not belong on his program.
>
- Brody
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh my, haven't we all plowed this one into the ground. When I first
considered performing 0'00" I knew nothing about it, which explains why I
began an inquiry on this list. We all have been discussing the
validity of my original view on this work--hell, reminded me of Marcel
Duchamp placing a toilet bowl on display in a gallery. Since Duchamp and
Cage were acquainted I would at least assume that some of the humor and
surprise found in Dada would carry over to his own work. Then again, maybe
not.
Let me tell you all a little story: A week ago I had been
celebrating with a bit of alcohol and my girlfriend. In manic state I
shouted that I would show her some 'real expression', went down the hall,
got a chair, then threw it out of my second story dorm room window. My
girlfriend didn't see it actually fly, but by taking the action, I became
composer, performer, and audience member of a spontanious creation. Now
throwing a chair out a window seems like a really stupid thing to do, but
boy did it feel good. Conservative Indiana frustrates me and I like to
use expressionist-like methods to vent my dissatisfaction. Since my intent
was to express, this became a valid creation. Much like a piano being tossed
on Northern Exposure. I took this all very seriously at the time but
now I am quite amused. In fact if someone were to refer to it as the
stupid act of a juvenile, i'd only laugh & laugh.
Let's all not keep running in circles with 0'00". The many different
'interpretations' that everyone has contributed only prove that I myself must
interpret it for myself. The work certainly must be taken seriously in
performance, like my flying chair. If the piece can make you laugh as well
as think or feel then isn't that a valid reaction also?
Cooking ramen noodles . . . .
hahahahahaha . . .
:)
Philip Naumann, student asst.
University Computer Center
Butler University
Indianapolis, IN
------------------------------
From: AnthoC@aol.com
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 17:08:37 -0400
Subject: Re: List of Cage Works
I would like to commend Josh Ronsen for his list of Cage works; however,
there were some pieces which were left out, and a few errors, mainly with the
numbered pieces. Here are my corrections:
Sculptures Musicales... (aka "Inventions")
One^8 (1991) cello, may be played with or without 108 (for orchestra)
These pieces were written at the same time.
Two^4 (1991) violin and piano or sho
Four^3 (1991) (aka "Beach Birds" or "Extended Lullaby")
One^9 (1991) sho < this is correct
One^9 (1992) voice < should be as follows:
One^7 (1990 or 1991) voice
One^10 (1992) violin
One^12 (1991) for lecturer
Eight (1991) ensemble
Twenty-eight, Twenty-six, and Twenty-nine (1991) for large ensemble.
These three pieces were written simultaneously, and meant to be
performed together or in seperately.
I've never seen any references to Otte or Muoyce No. 2 (both 1992)
There is also One^13, which was NOT completed at the time of Cage's death.
Michael Bach has finished a possible version of the piece, but it is NOT a
Cage piece.
My sources include the list, prepared by Cage only days before his death for
the "Anarchic Harmony" book.
I'm also going on the fact that I worked with Paul Sadowski as Cage's music
copyist from 1990 to his death. It is for these reasons that I do not agree
with the recent postings about creating "new Cage pieces" by following the
same procedures that he used. Chance was a part of his compositional
practice, just as consulting a serial chart is for Milton Babbitt. However,
once the chance procedures have been used, the results are set: yes, Cage did
proof-read his music, and he would want us to make corrections. At this stage
of the piece, mistakes were not "portals of invention", but mistakes! The
freedoms that were given to the performers were a reflection of his personal
philosophy, but I know that if a performer were to recompose, say 108, there
would be limits! I know that he admonished an orchestra for just that!
I hope this is all useful, and promotes discussion
Anthony Cornicello
------------------------------
From: "Jamey Pritchett" <jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 95 16:07:56 -0400
Subject: Cage help
Joe Zitt posted your request for info on a number Cage pieces to the Cage
mailing list. The titles you list are all the titles of dances by
Merce Cunningham and only one is the title of a Cage piece -- Variations V.
I am not certain which pieces go with which of the other Cunningham
dances, except that Rainforest has a score by David Tudor. Check out the
Cunningham literature for more info.
BTW, there is no recording of Variations V (at least not to my knowledge).
James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
------------------------------
From: sarmad@clark.net
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 09:16:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Sounds/Procedures/Experience
>In Cage's case, I don't see how you can separate talking about procedures
>from talking about sounds -- his procedures are very much about the sounds
>he uses.
>
>Talking about experiences moves into a different realm altogether -- listening
>as opposed to composition. I fear that writing about musical experience is
>a losing proposition; I think only something that has the character of
>poetry would be worthwhile, and then it would be so personal and artistic
>that it would be useless for the purpose of "discourse" (hallelujah).
>I find myself drawn in this direction, but have no clue as to where I'm
>going.
>
>James Pritchett
>jwp@silvertone.princeton.edu
Random thoughts. Perhaps G-D does play dice with the universe.
We are too close to hear how Cage's ways, not to mention the serialists',
of generation, selection, choice and composition affect the listening
process.
Perhaps we hear it, but the the mode is not in our ordinary way (yet) of
hearing.
In Mozart we can hear this more easily(in a naive way (actually one of the
more interesting ways, for me)).
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 10:44:07 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Chyron: JOHN CAGE help
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>
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>From: smoliar (Stephen Smoliar)
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<199504220117.UAA25030@zoom.bga.com>
>Subject: (Fwd) Chyron: JOHN CAGE help
>
>Seth Tisue forwarded a request for information about Cage material. However,
>most of the titles given are actually dances by Merce Cunningham. Let me try
>to clarify the list:
>
>>>Could someone please tell me which John Cage albums the following works
>>>appear on ?:
>>>
>>>"Tread"
>
>The music for "Tread" was Christian Wolff's "For 1, 2, or 3 People." More
>specifically, it is a two-person realization which David Tudor made on a
>Baroque organ where he was both persons (playing against a recording of
>a one-person realization). There was a recording of this as an Odyssey
>vinyl called A SECOND WIND FOR ORGAN. However, this recording was NOT
>exactly the recording which was used during performances of "Tread."
>
>>>"Inventions"
>
>I assume what is intended here is "Six Short Inventions;" I am not sure this
>has been recorded since the 25-year retrospective concert.
>
>>>"Place"
>
>This Cunningham dance was set to Gordon Mumma's "Mesa," which was also included
>on the SECOND WIND FOR ORGAN recording; but Mumma and Tudor performed it live
>at every performance.
>
>>>"Variations V "
>
>I seem to recall an old vinyl of this, but I do not think it ever made it to
>CD.
>
>>>"Exchange"
>
>This is a Cunningham dance to music by David Tudor which I think has the same
>name.
>>"Rain Forest"
This is again a David Tudor score, and I KNOW it has the same name as the
dance.
>>"Walk Around Time"
>>
The score for this one is by David Behrman, entitled "... for nearly an
hour ... ;" I do not think it was ever recorded.
Stephen W. Smoliar (smoliar@iss.nus.sg); Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace; Kent Ridge
SINGAPORE 0511; Tel: +65-772-3350; FAX: +65-473-9897
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 12:07:50 EST
Subject: Emendations to Cage list, 1936-39
Here's some more information for Josh Ronsen's list which we hope will
eventually be posted to the Cage homepage.
Regarding the question of unpublished works: What is unpublished today may not
necessarily be unpublished tomorrow - so I don't see the usefulness of
indicating whether something is published (yet) or not. (Though it would be
interesting to list the dates of publication when they differ from dates of
composition.)
I would like to see the pieces whose where abouts are unknown to be so
indicated, or, for my preference, to be placed in an appendix.
Here's the next installment of my emendations to Josh's list of Cage's works.
>Marriage at the Eiffel Tower (1936) piano, trombone, percussion orchestra
As I said, I believe the correct date of this is 1939, which I'll discuss
below.
>Trio (1936) percussion
The 3 movements of this work are: Allegro, March, Waltz.
>Music for Wind Instruments No.1 (1937) flute, clarinet and bassoon
>Music for Wind Instruments No.2 (1937) oboe and cornet
>Music for Wind Instruments No.3 (1937) flute, oboe, clarinet, cornet and
bassoon
The format of this entry makes it look like 3 separate works when it is
3 movements of one work. The correct date is 1938. With the
ensemble designations, I'd prefer the following:
Music for Wind Instruments (1938): Trio (flute, clarinet and basson)
Duet (oboe and cornet)
Quintet (flute, oboe, clarinet, cornet and bassoon)
(You work out the spacing.) :)
>Five Songs for Contralto (1938)
The five songs are: Little four paws, Little Christmas tree, In just,
Hist whist, Tumbling hair.
If anyone knows the textual source for these texts by Gertrude Stein, I'd like
to know.
>America Was Promised (1938) voice and 2 pianos
The correct date is 1940 - and the manuscript location is unknown.
>Metamorphosis (1938) piano
No problem with this one.
>Music for Wind Instruments (1938)
This is the same as the one I corrected above (1938 is the correct date).
>Five Songs (1939) voice
This is the same as the 5 songs for Contralto above.
>Spiritual (1939) piano
>Ho to AA (1939) voice
Works whose manuscripts are unknown. Other "missing" works are a String
Quartet (1936), and Music for an aquatic ballet (1938).
>First Construction (in Metal) (1939)
>Imaginary Landscape No.1 (1939)
No problem with these.
Which brings us to The Marriage at the Eiffel Tower. I did a lot of research
on this and I'm sure it must be 1939, despite Cage's date of 1936 on the
manuscript, which I bet was written when he copyrighted his existing works
in 1960. This is incidental music for the Jean Cocteau play. Cage was the
music director for this "Hilarious Dance Concert" which was choreographed
by Bonnie Bird, and had additional music by George Frederick McKay and Henry
Cowell (Cowell's portion of the music was published by the New Music
Edition). This work is also significant because Merce Cunningham was one of
the dancers - hence representing the first work in which the two played a part.
I'll try to keep on emendating on a regular basis.
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music
Librarian
Graduate Center
Music Division
City University of New York
The New York Public Library
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
bkosovsky@nypl.org
- -------My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions-------
------------------------------
From: "DR. BENWAY'S LAB ASSISTANT" <NAUMANN@Butler.EDU>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 09:29:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Cage and humor
Sorry about my last post. It took 12 days from the time I wrote it till I
received it. When I worte it the topic was winding down (0'00"), and now
the direction of the discussion has changed altogether. Would everyone just
disregard it--or at least temper any reply due to this situation. Is there
a problem with the mailing list? Oh well . . .
Philip Naumann
M of M - cello performance
. . . in 17 days . . .
------------------------------
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From: Douglas Cohen <douglas@tmn.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 12:23:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cage help
On Sun, 23 Apr 1995, James Pritchett wrote:
>
> BTW, there is no recording of Variations V (at least not to my knowledge).
>
That seems to be correct, but I did see a film performance of the
original Cunningham production when the "RolyWholyOver a Circus" exhibit
came to Houston. The video tape is likely available for anyone who
wants to hear the piece.
------------------------------
From: Josh Ronsen <rons@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 14:05:05 -0500
Subject: Re: List of Cage Works
------------------------------
From: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:35:01 +0000
Subject: Re: List of Cage Works
AnthoC@aol.com writes:
> One^12 (1991) for lecturer
Is this published? What is the text like?
> My sources include the list, prepared by Cage only days before his death for
> the "Anarchic Harmony" book.
What is this book?
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/Online Liaison, Third Annual Austin International Poetry Festival \|
/ <A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/"> Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\
------------------------------
From: Bob Kosovsky <kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:31:59 EST
Subject: emendations to Cage list: 1941
Here are emendations for 1941
>Double Music (1941)
It should be mentioned that this is a work with joint authorship, Cage having
done the parts for players 1 and 3, with Lou Harrison having done parts for
players 2 and 4.
>Third Construction (1941)
No problem.
>The City Wears a Slouch Hat (1941) sound effects
The correct date of this work is 1942 - and I'll say a little more about it in
the next installment (as it has a personal connection....)
Bob Kosovsky
Student, PhD Program in Music
Librarian
Graduate Center
Music Division
City University of New York